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Venomoids Are Awesome
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by tommyblake81 on December 18, 2010
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I posted an ad about a male blizzard monocle cobra I had for sale in which I stated that he had undergone a devenomization procedure. In response I got this email:
"You stupid douchebag!!!! Why the fuck would you get a beautiful cobra, from a well respected cobra breeder and try to get it venomoided!? If you can't handle a hot cobra, You shouldn't buy one in the first place...you should give that poor butchered snake to someone who will appreciate and respect it for what it is...then get rid of the rest of your pets, since you obviously cannot handle the responsibility, and go play in traffic. "
I would like to reply to this moron and every other moron that thinks there is something wrong with devenomizing snakes. First of all, if you are against venomoids you are against reptiles. Venomoids bring people into the hobby that otherwise would not be interested. By attacking venomoids you are attacking the reptile community as a whole. Second, devenomization isn't cruel. It is the same as having your child circumcised, your cat neutered, or your dogs ears clipped. Evolution doesn't always have our best interest in mind and my cobra does not seem to care or mind that his glands have been removed. Third, it is safer for you, your neighbors, and your snake. Getting a venomous snake devenomized is the responsible and appropriate thing to do and everyone should have their snake devenomized. It isn't about whether or not you can keep a hot snake, rather it's about being safe than sorry. To further elaborate on the matter here is what I wrote to a friend of mind as we were debating about the issue:
" I am aware of the fact that many people do not recognize venomoid snakes on the grounds that the procedure is both cruel and ineffective. I disagree with both of those arguments. In regards to the first objection, opponents argue that the procedure is cruel and have compared it to having a cat declawed. Opponents also argue that the snakes venom aids in pre-digestion, and some have even stated that it changes the snakes personality. Finally, opponents of venomoids argue that removing the glands causes the snakes face to sink in.
There is a problem with each one of these arguments. First, it is not adequate to compare a devenomized snake with a declawed cat. The snakes fangs will not be removed, only the glands. A more suitable analogy would be comparing to a cat that has been neutered. Second, monocled cobras do not need venom to digest their food, they have some of the most powerful amino acids in the animal kingdom. Lab tests have established this as a fact and I have personally worked with venomoids in PA at my uncles house and have not noticed any signs of illness in any of the snakes. If I honestly thought this would injure the animal I would never consider owning one. I also have not noticed a change in the snakes attitude. All of the animals are assertive and alert and I do not believe they are aware of the fact that they can no longer produce venom. Finally, opponents state that the snakes face will begin to sink in after the surgery. This is true, however, veterinarians now put prosthetic glands in place of the removed glands. This prevents the snakes face from sinking in.
Opponents also argue that the surgery is ineffective and that the snakes still produce venom. This is because when veterinarians first started doing the procedure they only removed the venom ducts and not the venom glands. The venom ducts can grow back allowing the snakes to produce venom after surgery. As a result many of the snakes on the market thought to be venomoids continued to produce venom. Now veterinarians remove the gland, which cannot grow back. The only way the snake would still be able to produce venom is if the surgeon left part of the gland, or some gland cells, in the snakes cavity. However, there is a way to test for this type of malpractice. Three months after the surgery the owner can do a live mouse test or milk the snake. If the snake is still producing venom he can be brought back to the vet for a follow up. If the snake is not producing venom the owner should test again in another three months. If the animal is still not producing then it will be an established venomoid. Venomoids greatly reduce the risk of owning a venomous snake for both the owner and the public and devenomization should be considered a means of preventing serious injury.
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by Existential on December 18, 2010
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If You want a snake without venom, get one. If you feel that you can't safely keep a venomous snake, don't get one. Its obviously pointless to argue with you, from what I've heard from others and the tone of your post, but it seems to me that you shouldn't have venomous if you're that uncomfortable about it.
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by theemojohnm on December 18, 2010
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The role of venoms (even neurotoxic compounds) is still not largely understood.
I really didn't think you'd have the nerve to go through with posting this, but I guess some are that moronic.. What is your reasoning, despite all these ridiculous statements made trying to down-play the severity of the procedure on the animal’s health..?
Since you were obviously aware that posting this would aggravate a lot of people, why post it here..? Take this idiotic post to the venomoid boards.
We keep venomous snakes because we are fascinated by just that, venomous snakes.. If you are too incompetent to keep venomous animals; then don't. There are many 'venomoid' species that occur naturally.. These are generally known as NON-venomous snakes! So why should you have to create one, for your own selfish, cowardly, and egotistical benefit..?!
Keep garter snakes (oh wait, many Thamnophis species DO possess neurotoxins, venomoid them too?) if you lack the mental capacity to keep venomous snakes. Don't mutilate an animal for your own ‘benefit‘.
The spaying and neutering of domestic animals is intended to keep uncontrollable numbers down, and help the species population(s) as a whole.. (I do NOT believe in 'de-clawing', either). Surgical alteration of venomous snakes serves no purpose, and if anything, DOES harm the animal. (Like say, opening the animal up TO INFECTION, apparently a complication of the procedure preformed ON YOUR ANIMAL, according to your classified ad).. No purpose exists except serving your own deranged purpose.
I can't see this thread staying open very long, and hopefully it won't. I will say that, now that I know who you are, at that you are located in my state, I will do everything in my power to make obtaining animals as hard as I possibly can for you. I'm present (along with other P.W.H.S. reps) at many of the states shows, and have many great friendships with many (most) show dealers and show promoters in the state. We advocate responsible private husbandry, and efforts beneficial to the species. Neither of which apply to you.
Can't take the heat..? Then, get out of the kitchen..
Sincerely,
-John Mendrola
(Pennsylvania Woodland Herpetological)
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by theemojohnm on December 18, 2010
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Also, please post links to published refferences thess 'lab tests', proving the digestive effects of venomid N. kaouthia..
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by jared on December 18, 2010
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"Now veterinarians remove the gland, which cannot grow back. The only way the snake would still be able to produce venom is if the surgeon left part of the gland, or some gland cells, in the snakes cavity." THis statement is also 100% correct and the fact that you say you had surgery at a VCA hospital is just about the equivalent of saying that you had it done at banfield. Could you please post some contact info for you surgeon because I have worked with vetrinary specialist and surgeons for years and none have EVER heard of that in any form. Glands in ophidians can regenerate just as they can in mammals the process is slower that is why I am guessing you said to retest 2 over 6 months. My Drs here would also love to see any link, data, or ANYTHING that would show a VCA did this surgery.
Jared Watts
Director R&T Wildlife Response Inc
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by tommyblake81 on December 18, 2010
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The main gist of your argument seems to be that if I cannot own a venomous snake then I shouldn't own a venomoid. Yet when someone with an IQ over that of 50 investigates this argument they will quickly see that it falls apart. First of all just because I own a venomoid doesn't mean I am incapable of, or scared to, own a hot. My father owned hots and I grew up with gaboon vipers and rhino vipers my whole life and am very capable of handling them. What your stating really isn't even an argument and it appears that you have resorted to "teasing" me about the matter which would be expected of someone with a low IQ. I own a venomoid because it is the responsible thing to do. Arguing that devenomization is wrong is the irresponsible. Everyone who owns a venomous snake should go get its glands removed. It is simply the mature thing to do as keeping venomous snakes only ads unnecessary risk to our hobby. I do not own a venomoid snake because I am incapable of owning a venomous snake I own a venomoid snake simply because I feel it is the more responsible thing to do and is safer. If you want to act like a stupid hill billy and play with venomous snakes go ahead. Also, you wrote "The spaying and neutering of domestic animals is intended to keep uncontrollable numbers down, and help the species population." This is true but most people do it so their cats don't spray piss in their house and so they don't go into heat. This would indicate that they altered the animal to better fit a domesticated lifestyle in the house. I have done the same thing to my snake. He is no longer in a state of nature but rather in a state of captivity and should be altered to fit the said state.
Regarding your other points it is interesting to see that you resorted to lying. First you wrote, "Surgical alteration of venomous snakes serves no purpose, and if anything, DOES harm the animal. (Like say, opening the animal up TO INFECTION, apparently a complication of the procedure preformed ON YOUR ANIMAL." First, devenomization does serve a purpose, it keeps people from being injured by their animals. This is called being responsible. Arguing that snakes shouldn't be devenomized is irresponsible and only serves your deranged, child like, ignorant, immature, delusional, negligent, self righteous cause. Second, opening the animal up does expose it to the risk of infection but they give it medicine so it doesn't get infected. My snake didn't have an infection as a result of the procedure, I stated that the vet supposedly found an infection in the gland when she opened the snake up. An infection that could have killed the snake if it wasn't found. In this case devenomizing my snake actually saved it from death by infection. You then write, " We advocate responsible private husbandry, and efforts beneficial to the species. Neither of which apply to you." Yet what you are arguing is the exact opposite of responsible. You just want to play with venomous snakes because you're a dumb hick and not feel guilty if you get bit. You are trying to force you're opinions on other people and silence the opposition. This seems a little communistic to me. People can do whatever they want with their personnel property. If I feel this is ethical it is my choice and I encourage other people to do it as well.
Next you claim that, " * The role of venoms (even neurotoxin compounds) IN DIGESTION* is still not largely understood." Well here is what is understood. No snake has ever had a problem as a result of it's in ability to inject venom. My snake is healthy and shows no sign of illness. If it did, I would gladly advocate against venomoids, but it doesn't. You are just lying to discourage people from owning venomoids. Which they should. Also, I noticed that when I feed my snakes frozen thawed they don't even use their venom they just eat the prey. This makes sense since hots like to conserve their venom for defense and wouldn't want to waste it when they don't have to ( I actually might post a video of my snake doing this). Monocle cobras also eat eggs and I have documented them not using venom when eating their eggs as well. You're friend also claimed that, " Glands in ophidians can regenerate just as they can in mammals the process is slower that is why I am guessing you said to retest 2 over 6 months. " This is a lie. The text book, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" by Douglas R. Mader, clearly documents that once the glands are removed they don't grow back. Also, here is a link to another site that states that the glands can't grow back and verifies everything I said, " http://www.smuggled.com/VenFAQ1.htm". Another site by venomoid inc actually performs the surgeries and guaranties that the snake will remain 100% venomoid it's whole life. The address is, " http://www.venomoidinc.com/home/". Also, here is a website to where my snake had his surgery done, "http://www.vcahospitals.com/smoketown/our-team/veterinarians.html". The surgery was performed by Dr. Cooper. You can call to verify that they do the surgeries. This should answer all you're equivocations.
In conclusion I would like to all of the readers to note that these individuals are immature and irresponsible. They are communist who want to shut people who think differently up and are arguing points that are detrimental to the reptile community. If you are against venomoids you are against reptiles. They don't care about the snakes, they just want to destroy the private reptile industry and anything that would make it more interesting. The surgery doesn't harm the animal, they are just acting like dumb girls because they aren't manly; they are just sensitive little communist who got shoved in the locker to many times and now want to stand for something.
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by tommyblake81 on December 18, 2010
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Also, I don't care if what I write "hurts people's feelings". The stigma against venomoids is ridiculous and someone needs to tell the reptile community to man up and stop acting like girls. Little dweebs like you who just want to take up any low level cause your incompetent little minds think you are capable of handling have controlled the narrative for too long. You have weak personalities and it is time for real mean to control the narrative and shut your fucking mouths. You nag and scorn worse than my wife. Stop lying and trying to get the tread taken down so people can't see the truth and deal with that fact that this battle is Lost and venomoids are the future ! They will become popular ! In fact I have about $50,000 in the bank just laying around collecting dust and I think I just found a great way of spending some of it. HOPE TO SEE YOU AT THE NEXT REPTILE SHOW WITH MY STAND THAT WILL BE DEVOTED TO SELLING STRICTLY VENOMOID SNAKES. In fact, that sound like a great name for a website, STRICTLY VENOMOIDS. Maybe I will give away the first $500.00 just to put more venomoids on the market and show everyone how great they.
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by theemojohnm on December 18, 2010
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Like many have said, there seems little point in trying to reason with you, as you seem to have your mind made up. If you feel that you can not keep a venomous snake without being tagged, simply don't..
THAT keeps incompetent people from being bitten, as just as you have also stated, venomoid SURGERIES CAN, AND DO, GO WRONG. So, one can also argue that it is even riskier to trust, in full confidence, that one can handle their venomoid animal without danger..
YOUR argument falls apart, as your opinions don't mean a damn thing to anyone here. Once again, when you can post reference to solid scientific material to support your ridiculous claims, than you may be taken somewhat seriously. (You will still not likely win over ANYone on an ethical standpoint)..
Low IQ, says someone who can't handle a kaouthia without being bitten. LOL, you are character, that is for sure. I will thank you for taking the time to present your opinion(s) in an [attempted] logical sense, though.. That is more than can be said for some of the pro-venomoid morons.
Again, many of these scientific 'facts' that you keep spitting out are little more than speculation. You are right in that, many venomous species do not use venom during every feeding. The point is that they should have the OPTION TO do so, if adequate heat or UV exposure is not available, and for what ever other factors that may make for less than ideal cold-blooded metabolic conditions. And, it is speculated that many venoms ARE in fact used this way. What study are you citing that venomoid specimens suffer no constituencies, metabolically..? Are you aware that many of these specimens display (at least moderately) shortened life spans..? Again, the role of venom in digestion is far from being fully understood, and much appears to be quite the opposite of what you state. That point is invalid.. They may NOT require venom in optimal conditions, but they have the option of using it to subdue food naturally and should also in a captive setting. When you care for an animal, you take on responsibility to the ANIMAL as well as the people it may have the potential to harm. Any surgical complications that arise to the death or disfigurement (even sole accidents) are unacceptable, simply because it is ENTIRELY unnecessary.
All of your other points are nothing more than opinions regarding 'responsibility'.. How about responsibility to the ANIMAL? Using proper tools, using locking rooms and cages are responsible measures.
BUTCHERING AN ANIMAL SO THAT YOU CAN CUT CORNERS, IS NOT.
That's the end of my comment on this thread. You can't reason with the senseless, unfortunately. Let me know next time you go to a PA show, as I'd LOVE to meet you. And I'm more all of our reputable vendors, and promoters, (all ANIMAL ENTHUSIASTS) would also.
Another thing that intrigues me is why you chose to post this in the first place. What recent event has provoked this post (other than an email)..? You were obviously aware that this was going to piss off most the respected herpetological community, so why choose to alienate yourself..? Your credibility is increasingly 'flushed' with every post..
Sincerely,
-J. Mendrola
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