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The Importance of Debate in the Reptile Community
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by davendonaldspets28 on December 19, 2010
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I would like to say that the discussion on whether or not the devenomization procedure is ethical was very interesting and intriguing. I couldn't help but notice however, that a bunch of really good comments, including mine, in support of devenomization got cut off at the end. It seemed that the opponents of the issue, including the domain master, were more interested in getting the forum closed down and silencing people who were pro venemoid then actually bringing sound ideas to the table. I have always been a man of principal and believe that sound arguments should rest on their own merits. I also think this argument represented the importance of debate. Although I do understand that many were scared the pro venomoid rhetoric would trigger underground venomoid clinics that could injure the animals, the issue still needs to get worked out and I can't believe the domain master would just close such an important topic in the middle of the discussion. We shouldn't be scared to answer the tough questions, nor discourage them, instead we should embarrass them and try to talk about them civilly. Both pr venomoid advocates and anti venomoid activist should find a middle ground and work together. The reptile community as a whole is under attack right and are freedom to own and domesticate animals is in jeopardy. If we can't work together and put are petty differences aside we will fail. Look at the gay rights community (although I tend to be more conservative in nature,) you don't see them fighting with themselves. They call themselves the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and transgender, (LGBT) community. You don't see them arguing that bisexuals aren't really gay or that the transvestite procedure is altering people. They stick together and they get what they want. If we can't stick together and don't work out our problems we as a community we fail. We have to stop all this infighting. The anti reptile activist are our enemies not the pro-venomoid community. Thus I agree that if you are anti venomoids you are anti reptiles. Even the best handlers have been bit. This makes the community look bad. If venemoids help reduce the number of serious venemous snake injuries, even by a little, it is good for us as a whole and the debate shouldn't be silenced we need to talk about this issue.
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RE: The Importance of Debate in the Reptile Commun
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by davendonaldspets28 on December 19, 2010
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I would like to re-state my comment that I posted before the discussion was abruptly clossed and incourage the other who had thier commenst edited to post here. Also I would like to discuss the effect of in fightig on the reptile community.
My comment was that: When diamonds are taken from the earth they are just ugly rocks. They have to be cut to show their true beauty. Venomoids are like rough stones that have been cut to show their true beauty and help with the domestication process as I believe most animals can be domesticated. Dogs have been bred to be domesticated but artificial selection on animals is still altering them in one way or another.
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RE: The Importance of Debate in the Reptile Commun
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by vanerka on December 19, 2010
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Dave, I understand where your coming from with a venomoid bite that would have otherwise been a serious envenomation leave nothing more than a couple pin pricks instead. This is the only pro-venomoid point i can see. Yes, the lack of bad press helps, however thats where proper haandeling comes into play. And everyones overall bottom line here (anti-venomoid stance), is that just because we can do something doesnt always mean we should. Removing the venom producing glands from any venomous animal is simply put unnecessary. If you would prefer to keep a non-venomous animal for the simple fact your worried about getting bit. Please choose an animal that naturally doesnt produce venom period.
I would like to make a request from Karl to shut this one down too. Everyone has made a statement and we see everyones viewpoint reguarding this issue. Can we please leave it at that before things get anymore heated.
Greatly appreciated, Eric V.
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RE: The Importance of Debate in the Reptile Commun
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by agkistrodude on December 19, 2010
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If you don't want to risk death via snakebite, buy a ball python. It really is that simple. Would you buy a Colt .45, but never buy bullets for it because your afraid you or someone might get hurt? Do you de-claw cats? Pull the teeth out of dogs? Trim the beaks off of parrots? IMO there is no need for removing the venom apparatus from a snake. Not one. Buy a boa. Take care, Marty
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RE: The Importance of Debate in the Reptile Commun
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by davendonaldspets28 on December 19, 2010
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I think this Tommy Blake fellow really inadvertently stumbled upon something that I find completely amazing. You people are really willing to lie, cheat steal, and edit information that doesn't conform to your point of view. I am absolutely appalled. We live in a democracy for God's sake. You should be celebrating all the attention this issue brings to our community and how active it makes are members. Instead you want to shut it down and end discussion. What the hell is wrong with you people ? I can see disagreeing but you don't even want to disagree you want to limit freedom of speech about the topic. This is utterly amazing and if speech about this topic is edited there is something seriously not right within this community. I would never have expected to see this in America it is almost like seeing a ghost or something. This is beyond anti reptile this is really beginning to become anti American. If this is the attitude on this site we might as well live in China.
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RE: The Importance of Debate in the Reptile Commun
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by agkistrodude on December 19, 2010
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Dave, look at the title of the website. VENOMOUSreptiles.org. Not EXvenomousreptiles.org.
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RE: The Importance of Debate in the Reptile Commun
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by davendonaldspets28 on December 19, 2010
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Absolutely not the reasoning here is ill-founded and twisted. The points you people are touching base on have already been refuted in the last argument. You are just trying to make this conversation become belligerent to limit free speech this is amazing. This is un- American treason I can believe this is even happening on a well respected site like this.
If I want a cobra but want to limit the risks involved I am perfectly justified in getting it devenomized. Would you not have unprotected sex because it is unnatural ? We like to own dogs but would you own a wolf ? No, we bred them to conform to captivity. We remove dogs testacies so they don't hump are legs and neuter cats so they don't mark their territory. I may be perfectly capable of owning a non spayed dog but why would I want to ? What if it goes into heat and attacks somebody ? I am capable of owning a venomous cobra but why would I want to even the most professional handlers get bit ? Most of us feed them frozen food any way this doesn't even make sense. You people are literally arguing a point that doesn't make sense.
If what you are trying to say is that people who would not normally buy something like a cobra would now buy it since it has been devenomzied that's a valid point but so what ? Who cares ? Let the market adapt and change. That is why it is called the free market system. I may not want a ball python I may want a cobra but I also may want to limit the risk involved the same way an owner of a school bus company may want to put governors on the busses so the drivers can't speed. None of you are making any sense please someone articulate a sound basis there has to be a valid reason why all of you feel this way all of you can't seriously be basing your reasoning on these ridiculous claims can you ?
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RE: The Importance of Debate in the Reptile Commun
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by davendonaldspets28 on December 19, 2010
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I think what has really happened here is these anti venomoid folks have set the narrative and you people have contented yourselves with the idea that venomoids are bad and are just following along like little brain washed puppets. In the beginning I was 50/50 on the issue but now I can see from this emotional and ill informed rhetoric that the venomoid people are 100% correct and you people are strictly reactionary because someone one else, with a twisted point of view, has already set the tone and told the puppets what they should be thinking. It's interesting I read a book once about how communist can brainwash people by controlling the social norms and how people who think outside of the box would be silenced and made to look crazy. It is interesting to see it actually happening here on this little forum on a reptile site. Life is full of little surprises isn't it ? This experience has really been an eye opener. This issue really isn't even about venomoids any more sociologist should study this argument and how controlling the social norms helps herd the sheep.
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RE: The Importance of Debate in the Reptile Commun
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by davendonaldspets28 on December 19, 2010
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Also I don't want to make this just about venomoids what do you thinks about all this infighting and lack of unification in the reptile community ? PETA and their anti reptile groups are destroying us in a militant fashion shouldn't we be sticking together in times like these. Is this really a time to be persecuting members of our own community on an issue that can help win us over general public acceptance ? We expect others to tolerate the fact that we own venomous pets but we can't tolerate the members of our own community who choose to be apprehensive and responsible ? Another member made a really good point about how he didn't like the idea of venemoids but would rather have his neighbor own a venomoid then a hot because he has a family. Even if the owner was very experienced and kept the snake secure. Of course, his comment was edited out. It's not like we are in America or anything right ?
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