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The Hypocrisy on This Site !
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by kaouthiaking187 on March 26, 2011
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A lot of people, including myself, come to this website, which is in itself indifferent to all personal biases, to learn about venomous reptiles and share ideas about the animals and hobby we love. However, I would like to ask how we are suppose to do this when there is a group of ideologues who frequent the forums every day, responding to most of the posts here, and ganging up on those with whom they disagree. Namely, they are: lanceheads, Buzztail1, AquaHerp, snakeguy101, CanadianSnakeMan, Rob_Carmichael, LarryDFishel, Crotalusssp, theemojohnm, vanerka, LarryDFishel, agkistrodude, Existential, Cro, Peter84Jenkins, Time, and nietzsche, etc. However, before I go any further, I would like to state that this is not a personal attack on anyone, but rather, just an observation that I find it interesting because on a site such as this, one would think that there would be 100's, if not 1,000's, of people creating 100's of threads a day. But there is not. Why ? Could it be because there is a gang of members, who go around bullying people who think differently than they do. Deleting comments when other writers show them to be wrong, ganging up on members they disagree with, and constantly reinforcing a stringent, naive, irresponsible, and bureaucratic ideology that undermines serious private reptile collectors and treats them as if they are doing something wrong and shouldn't be taken seriously. Possibly, but if this is the case, what is it about these members that separates them from most people. What are they about ? What is it exactly that they are trying to say and what is there ideology exactly ? Here is my answer based on what I have observed on this site. These members all believe that keeping venomous reptiles is something that not just any can do. They believe venomous reptiles should not be kept in private collections, and they believe that only certain highly trained people should have these animals as "one bite could mean serious injury or even death." Hence, they are for regulating the private trade of hots out of existence so that only those select few gifted people may practice keeping them. To achieve this end they employ three tactics. First, they bring out the caricature of private possession . Showing all the serious injuries, accidents, and dangers of hot ownership. Second, they guilt you into not owning hots by saying things like, " these animals aren't pets," and " you're not ready for one of these snakes, go start with a corn snake." They make you feel that by owning one of these animals that you are doing something inherently wrong, and that you should be punished for this. Third, they suck all the life from the hobby by attacking anything that would make the public more interested in keeping these animals or anything that is fun. They attack venomoids, hybrids, venom defender gloves, etc. If it is exciting or new its bad and you should be ashamed of yourself. But is this ethical ? Of course ! This is all good and reasonable, don't you get it, they are trying to protect you from yourself. You need to be brainwashed into submission because if you were left to your own stupid ideas who knows what kind of evil negligence you would be capable of you monster ! This needs to be done ! Right ? Maybe not. As reasonable as all this sounds, and as good as it looks on paper, it flies in the face of what we actually know. The reality of the situation is that in states where hots are legal thousands of people go to reptiles expo's and by hots with little or no experience, and everything works out just fine. People aren't dyeing on a massive scale, snakes aren't escaping and attacking children, and hospitals aren't being overwhelmed with snake bit victims. For the most part, everything is working out just fine. In fact, horses, plastic bags, and dogs, kill more people in a single year then most hots will in a lifetime. Are there accidents, sure, is it dangerous, of course, should it be outlawed NO. Like communism, these ideas look good on paper, however, they cannot account for the practical reality that most people who buy hots with little or no experience have no problem keeping them. This is most likely because since people know the animals are dangerous they take the proper precautions to deal with them. As where with dogs, horses, and bags, an attack or accident can happen unexpectedly. In reality, owning hots is not that big of a deal, it's all hype, once you spend some time with the snake, domesticate it, and get used to handling it, owning one will become so simple and normalized that you will wonder why you ever hesitated to get one in the first place. People should not feel guilty about owning hots, they should be kept as pets, they should be curious about hybrids and venomoids and be interested in new ways to keep their animals, and most of the gang I mentioned above knows this. So the question then becomes why are they trying to undermine private reptile ownership ? There are three answer. First, many of the people above have an interest in taking snakes out of private hands. If you look at the profiles of the people I listed, more than half of them work in zoo's or reptile museums (lanceheads, Buzztail1, AquaHerp, snakeguy101, CanadianSnakeMan, Rob_Carmichael). Many others on the site sell venom and work with hots in others ways. But why would zoo keepers, venom extractors, and others want to limit private ownership ? Think about stupid, people are interested in exotic reptiles, but if anyone could just walk into a pet shop and buy one, then no one would go to the zoo's anymore would they ? Also, less snakes on the market gives the people who extract venom a better monopoly on the industry. So obviously certain people have an interest in making you think that you are too stupid to own a hot snake. Second, and on the other end of the spectrum, some of these people do not own venomous reptiles at all. They just come on here and talk about what they think should be done because of the books they read (tricky because they may sound like experts), or because their friend or relative has a hot snake and they are interested in these animals. Yet they have not real knowledge or experience with these animals. They just talk the good one. Third, I have no doubt that some of these people are bureaucrats who may work for agencies that regulate these animals and are just trying to discourage private ownership. you can tell by the way some of these people talk that they are not passionate about keeping reptiles. If you think this is far out there think again. Government agencies do things like this to spread disinformation all the time and I have no doubt that government agencies are watching this site. These three points intermingle at certain areas as well. For instance, zoo keepers may be more passionate about profits the their animals, and since they adhere to unnecessarily strict protocols, they may have evolved bureaucrat like attitudes over time. So in my opinion experts are people who keep venomous reptiles in private collections, who do not have an interest in destroying the private pet industry, and who have a general passion for herpetology. But how are we supposed to function on this site when we have a gang of people stalking the threads and attacking any opinion that doesn't undermine private possession ? Shouldn't the threads be open to anyone who has an interest in these animals ?
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RE: The Hypocrisy on This Site !
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by lanceheads on March 27, 2011
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Why don't you start your own website or blog, instead of clogging this one up with your personal ramblings and non-sensical thoughts that drift away from the topics?
NOT making this PERSONAL, mind you, but you tend to "keep" arguing your point to everyone, no matter what other opinions are offered.Perhaps if you started your own "blog". like-minded folks would join you.
I wish you well my friend, and good luck in your endeavors.
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RE: The Hypocrisy on This Site !
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by kaouthiaking187 on March 27, 2011
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Well lanceheads you seem
to be missing the point. You did not start this site, hence you don't have the authority to tell me to go start my own site. If people like me bother you so much, then why don't you go start your own site ? What you are doing here is defending your territory. You and your gang of of ideologues have taken over the threads and now you want to keep control by outcasting those with a different opinion. However, just because you have more friends on this particular site then I do, does not give you the authority to tell me where to go, since you did not start the site. And if you really want to play the numbers game, I would argue that since most people agree with what I say and believe in the rights of private collectors, I have more of a right to post here then you.
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RE: The Hypocrisy on This Site !
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by kaouthiaking187 on March 27, 2011
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Again, the threads themselves are indifferent to all personal opinions, I just made this thread so that the people who come to this site
know who they are getting their information from, and what the character and agendas of those people are. The threads on this site come up on google often when people type in questions, and are very influence. Thus I feel it to be my duty to add as much information on it as I can, reguardless of whether or not you and your gang of rebels agrees with me. In fact, I will post an email I got from a
Member who seemed to be on your team and then seemed tonswitch sides when untapped to him one on one.
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RE: The Hypocrisy on This Site !
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by kaouthiaking187 on March 27, 2011
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Also lanceheads, you and your gang of thugs seem to respond to and take everything I say rather serious, hence inwodnt characterize it as, "ramblings and non-sensical thoughts " since you obviously wouldn't take such rhetoric so serious. And snakeguy, shouldn't you be seeking therapy for your condition instead of playing on the forums all day ? With thy said, here is the email exchange:
Thanks for the information.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 26, 2011, at 6:00 AM, Vanerka Eric <vanerka@gmail.com> wrote:
Well considering the positions I know that they hold and the connections they have they have the ability to do such things. Rob C. is a personal aquaintance of mine, dare I say a friend. He has many friends in the IDNR and if anyone has the ability to further influince by example, independant venomous permits in the state of IL, hes the only one I know of to have such a permit, it would be him, and I know many others on the site are in the same or similar positions. Although rob currently is the owner/curator for a zoo in lake forest, IL.
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Frank <kaouthiaking@yahoo.com> wrote:
Very interesting, I never thought about the way I raised the questions, nor did I know they influenced legislation.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2011, at 5:00 AM, Vanerka Eric <vanerka@gmail.com> wrote:
I understaand where your coming from with venomoid inc, they do it the right way, but they are one of the few, there are plenty of hack jobs out there. The members of the site find the way you produce the question and concerns you raise to be in a more of an attack which is why they get defensive, yes some of them are inexperienced and find the only way to deal with it is to attack you personally. The way you raise questions on the site is what is not respected. Including the fact that venomoids are generally frowned upon on the site. I see one of the only reasons you enjoy razzing everone so much is because the members of the site have in some instances heavily influinced legislation and are involved in the NZA, as well as DNR. Im not sure if thats why you see this as an amusing way of adding your views and input but there are better ways around it.
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Frank <kaouthiaking@yahoo.com> wrote:
With regards to the venomoids, the concerns you raise I
Completely agree with. However, the venomoid activist usually don't raise those objections, instead they make up lies about the procedure to slander it, and regardless of how you feel about, we should always keep the debate honest. However, there are a few problems with your valid concerns as well. First, stating that, " Venomoids purchased by the inexperienced could potentially lead to carless handeling behaviors and as a result an increase in bites and possibly even accidental envenomations" seems like a valid point, however, in reality we do not see this happening. In fact, venomous vendors such as venomous Inc guarantee their snakes, and are liable to be sued if some one was bit. Yes, there were a few accidents when the procedure first came out, however, this was because the procedure was still in its infancy and they only removed the duct, and not the gland. Now it has been fine tuned to the point were it is very effective in most instances. People also are informed by vendors to test the snakes before they hold them. Which should identify malpractice. As for your argument that we are altering the snakes for no reason, with no benefit to the snake, I will respond by string that there is a reason and a benefit. The reason is that it protects both people, and the snake, from serious injury, and that it creates more of a demand for hots thus expanding the industry. If also has various other functions such as snakes in movies, documentaries, snakes that are being exhibited, tested, and training in experienced handlers who may not know that the snake is a venomoid. As for hybridization, it attracts people to the hobby and occurs naturally via evolution so there is no reason to discriminate against it. To address your last statement, namely that, "All im saying is everyone is entitled to their own opinion no matter what that may be," I find this comical. The only one who has had their opinion curtailed on this site is
me. Do you know how many valid, reasonable, and articulate arguments I have made that the mods have deleted because they didn't agree with the content, or that those ideologues attacked just because they don't like me personally ? I am going to start another thread tonight, just follow my reasoning and watch how these people react.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 24, 2011, at 5:13 AM, Vanerka Eric <vanerka@gmail.com> wrote:
Im not saying I do or dont agree with you, In fact I do agree almost completly... I believe that venomous should be kept in private collections everywhere, as well as that things such as gloves and other safty equipment should be used. As far as hybrids are concerned, i could take them or leave them. I will say animals such as many different variations of everything (venomous and nonvenomous included) have hybrids like gabinos (gaboon x rinos) and retic x borneo bat eaters or jungles. There are plenty of them out there. However, since most of the individuals on the site are primarily zoo keepers, or other people that work in thee field simply dont see a need for these because they find the animals beautiful just the way they are. Yes this is opinion, but as I said thats a general census. What I dont necessarily agree (obviously most of the site members as well) with however are venomoids. This alone for the simple fact that its altering the animals natural state. While yes they mabey more dangerous, however neutering these animals sort of speak, does nothing for the fact that the object of the game is not to get bitten. Venomoids purchased by the inexperienced could potentially lead to carless handeling behaviors and as a result an increase in bites and possibly even accidental envenomations. This would then trigger bad press and force the authorities and government whether we like it or not to ban them simply because they dont understand, and are in fear of it happening again. All becuase of a lack of of knowledge and understanding on the part of the authority.
I also understand this is where venomoid advocates come in because they see it the same way except that with a venomoid the likelihood of envenomation is greatly decreased. Its an endless loop that will never have a solution. Both will forever be available no matter what either side believes.
And as far as people on the site that dont keep venomous. I am one of thoes people. However I do own one of the most rare species of python in captivity, the sarawak short tailed python, as well as a tiger retic. The only reason I dont posess venomous is because I live in a state that is way behind on everything (IL). Hell theyfinally have a bill in action thanks to the state police that would allow for permits for concealed carry to be available to the public. IL and WI being the only states left without such permits available for the general public. And guess whos at the top of crime rates throughout the US..... Aside from a very strict California, and a gang ridden, poverty stricken Detroit. All im saying is everyone is entitled to their own opinion no matter what that may be.
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Frank <kaouthiaking@yahoo.com> wrote:
Discussions about hard facts such as locals and color variations are not what I am talking about. I am talking about discussions that are mainly left to the opinion of the writer. The general attitude of most of the consistent writers on the site is that venomous reptiles should not be in private collections. This is the root cause of their other predispositions on issues like venomoids, hybrids, venom defender gloves, etc. They criticize anything that is attractive to private keepers. My hypothesis on why this is, is because most of the people who frequent the forums work in zoos and deal with these animals not because they want to but because it is their job. However, this theory surely has flaws and does not explain everyone. I am also beginning to suspect that many people who frequent the threads do not actually own venomous reptiles and just like to argue.
The reason I come to the threads is two fold. First, I believe venomous reptiles should be kept mostly in private collections. I believe private collectors are more intelligent, responsible, and adequate for the snake. Second, the opponents of my point of view will say things that seemingly make sense such as, " venomous reptiles should not be kept in private possessions." However, many are, at reptile shows venomous reptiles are sold to who ever walks in the door with money in their hands, and everything works out just fine, people are rarely injured by their animals, and everyone is happy. This is where their argument, that's seems practical, falls apart. We simply do not see any negative effects in private ownership. The theory that hots would cause societal unrest if legalized to the general public looks good on paper, but like communism, doesn't work and is not an adequate policy given the said reality of the situation. Owning venomous reptiles is more of a hype then a threat, and really not that big of deal, once this is accepted, my other points can easily be put into context. The third reason I come to the forums is because the forms themselves are indifferent to ideas. They are simply a place to express ideas and I am sure a person with a sincere concern will want to hear every point of view they can. Just because there is a gang of ideologues that frequent the forums who harass and attack those they disagree with in no way means the that the majority of people who view the threads do not want to here a voice that raises an alternate point of view that makes people think. I get emails from people all the time who aren't even members of the site and that 100% agree with me and would rather talk to me about their hots then most of these so called "experts." The gang that frequents the site has fine tuned a stringent, fanatical, and delusional perception of what owning a hot animal is like. It is this poison that corrupts the threads and constantly reinforces the propaganda of the ideologues. So asking why I come here is really a relevant question. It's like asking, "why live in the US if your a democrat, don't you know the republicans disagree with you." Reasonable minds will always disagree, and since I have an interest in educating the genealogy public, and the threads are an adequate place to do it, I am not going to leave because the ruling regime opposes me. If you don't agree with me, why even email me ?
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 22, 2011, at 10:04 PM, Vanerka Eric <vanerka@gmail.com> wrote:
How are methods of caring for and talk of different variations of colors per region of local and and other similar subjects propaganda. And even then if u find it to be propaganda then why do u come to the site?
On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Frank <kaouthiaking@yahoo.com> wrote:
That's interesting, venomoid advocates say things just as crazy all the time and you don't seem to mind them. The people don't seem to be learning very much, unless you consider propaganda learning.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 20, 2011, at 3:55 AM, Vanerka Eric <vanerka@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for harassing our site.... I would appreciate it if you quit the crap so people can learn.
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RE: The Hypocrisy on This Site !
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by kaouthiaking187 on March 27, 2011
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Also I called child services and they said as long as everything was being kept properly it would not be an issue. I gave names and numbers but my comment was deleted. The reason my profile is not filled out is because they keep deleting my accounts, so I have to keep making new ones, and I'm not doing it every time. I also rebuked Canadian snake man ( and all the other comenters) and showed how he was sti keeping his snakes illegally, and the child services would be
more interested in the fact that he could not feed his kids, although that was deleted as well. Also may child now has an eyelash viper that I got him at the reading show and he is handling it just fine. Ignorance is a worthy foe, and looks good on paper, but doesn'always account for the fact that humans are very sentient and responsible creatures.
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RE: The Hypocrisy on This Site !
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by kaouthiaking187 on March 27, 2011
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Remember, if you have to choose between letting your child unpack the groceries, ride a horse, get a dog, or get a venomous
Snake, getting him a hot would be the activity that puts him in the least amount of danger.
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RE: The Hypocrisy on This Site !
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by lanceheads on March 27, 2011
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So, your equating getting a child a venomous snake is less dangerous than getting him a dog or horse?
You are out of your mind! Don't give stats saying dogs/horses kill more people than venomous snakes, because the numbers would be skewed. Millions, upon millions own dogs/horses. Millions of people DON'T own venomous snakes, much less hundreds of children.
I now remember you, your the idiot that wanted to give his child a venomous snake. You are irrespondsible for doing so. How about filling out your true profile for everyone to see? That's my challenge for the day, do it brave man.
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