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Dendroaspis viridis ( Western Green Mamba)
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by elapid62 on July 25, 2003
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Hi All. !!! I have tryed my best to get the LD50 chart down. I would like to know where the west green mamba comes in at on the most venomous? The LD50 chart shows the venom being 0.8 and the black mamba being at 0.25 ??????????????? Help !!!! BGF ????
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RE: Dendroaspis viridis ( Western Green Mamba)
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by Snakeman1982 on July 25, 2003
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Hello Russell,
Although BGF's LD50 is more current and probably more accurate I also have another source for LD50 test results. Drs. George R. Zug and Carl H. Ernst have an LD50 chart in their book "Snakes in Question". It is a great read but isn't what I would call a scientific book but it has a lot of good common and need-to-know facts on snakes. It was published in 1996 so it is a little outdated compared to BGF's charts which I believe were all done in 1999, he can tell you more about that if I am wrong. Anyway, it has the Black Mamba listed at 0.08 mg/kg with a 50-100mg yield. That would put the snake at #6 for most potent venom in the world according to their listing. It doesn't have the Western Green Mamba listed but does list the Eastern Green Mamba (Dendroaspis angusticeps) at 0.26 mg/kg with venom yield at 60-95mg.
#1-5 most toxic snakes according to their sources are Hook-nosed seasnake (Enhydrina schistosa) currently better known as the Beaked seasnake, Russell's Viper (Vipera russelii, now it has changed to Daboia russeli), Inland Taipan (Oxyuranus microlepidotus) aka fierce snake, Dubois's reef seasnake (Aipysurus duboisii), and Eastern Brownsnake (Pseudechis textilis).
There are several things I dislike about this source of theirs. First of all its results tend to be different from most of the other lists out there, which makes me question it. It has older information (atleast 7 years) that may be considered obsolete now. Many dangerously venomous species are left out while less venomous ones remain in it. No subspecies in the data. The list doesn't seem to be a truly scientific data list but a list comprised more for the general public. And the information fails to tell you whether the venom is LD50 tested by intramuscular, intravenous, intraperitoneal, or subcutaneous.
I think that I would personally rely on Dr. BGF's information on the LD50 charts because he tends to currently be one of the top experts in venom research and is a specialists on it. The only reason I bring the other two up is because they too are both highly respected herpetologists and seem to have different results. Neither are actual venom specialists like BGF but still deserve our respect for their vast knowledge.
My question for BGF is where did Ernst and Zug get this data from and should we still consider it current data or outdated?
When asking the overall question about what snake is the most venomous there are several problems that I have with LD50 tests today. I won't get too into it because I am not a venom specialist with a Ph.D yet and it is neither my place to critisize or try and change something I am not an expert on. But according to most info today, all 10 of the "Most Venomous" snakes on earth apparently occur in Australia. Plenty of people each year get bit on this whole continent yet it averages inbetween 2-3 deaths a year from all species of snake bite. Myanmar by itself on the other hand is estimated to have close to 10,000 deaths a year from Russell's Vipers alone. I understand that this is a very third world country and more people per capita get bit but come on. There are plenty of other statistics out there just like this one and to me they state otherwise as far as what is most venomous. I don't think LD50 tests accurately depict the true venomous nature on large mammals but like I said earlier that is an opinion based on statistics and books that I have read and not from personal laboratory test results. Mice to me don't seem to be the best subjects for LD50 tests. Maybe some lifelong inmates just sitting around doing nothing should "donate" themselves to science.
Robert C. Jadin
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RE: Dendroaspis viridis ( Western Green Mamba)
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by Ferdelance_1 on July 25, 2003
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The actual database subcutaneous LD50s are: Dendroaspis polylepis, (Black Mamba), = 0.32 for 23rd place, and Dendroaspis viridis, (Western Green Mamba), = 0.7 for 37th place.
FYI:
Cheers,
Derek K.
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RE: Dendroaspis viridis ( Western Green Mamba)
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by Ferdelance_1 on July 25, 2003
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Additional FYI:
LD50 Top ten subcutaneous list consist of the following: Five (5) each Marine elapids, 3 (3) each Australian elapids, one (1) each Asiatic elapid Bungarus multicinctus (Many Banded Krait), and one (1) each African elapid Boulengerina christyi (Congo Water Cobra).
I believe that estimated fatality rate via Daboia russelii of 10,000 for Myanmar (Burma) alone, is double the estimate for this serpents's entire range???
Cheers,
Derek K.
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RE: Dendroaspis viridis ( Western Green Mamba)
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by elapid62 on July 25, 2003
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Ok, Great answers. But on BRF LD50 chart. it shows the green mamba to be 0.8 and the black mamba at 0.25 Can you help me brake this down to something I could understand ? I have a large green mamba, But I know much more about the black mamba, and how the venom affects the human body. I think The prisoner Deal would work well. It would also save a lot of tax money. "Heck maybe we could use that money for venom research." Thanks Russ
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RE: Dendroaspis viridis ( Western Green Mamba)
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by Snakeman1982 on July 25, 2003
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Hey Derek,
I think I just looked up where I found that source for the 10,000 russell viper deaths. I misread that source and made a mistake posting that. The article is found at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/03/25/MN66686.DTL and states "In Burma, cobras are a major problem because they live right in among the villages and farm fields. They probably kill at least 10,000 people a year, Slowinsky said, although only about 1,000 deaths are recorded by health authorities."
Thanks for the correction on my data because I had it in my head that Russell's Vipers killed that many, which I know is a huge number. Glad I got that taken care of however there are only a few species of cobras in Myanmar so I will try to get more info on that. Either way about 3,000 people in Australia are bit by venomous snakes and only 500 recieve antivenom. That means 2,500 people are getting bit without recieving antivenom and only 2-3 people are dying from all the bites. That source is reliable and is published in many journals and books. One place you can find it is at http://www.cfps.org.sg/sfp/28/282/282_pg40.pdf
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RE: Dendroaspis viridis ( Western Green Mamba)
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by Ferdelance_1 on July 26, 2003
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Russ,
You are utilizing the intravenous LD50 chart. An envenomation of this nature ie. "within a vein" is rare. Most envenomations are subcutaneous ie. "under the skin". Rember this: All Mambas including D. angusticeps possess primarily neurotoxic venom , (highest LD50 of all Mambas), can easily put you under without immediate, and proper medical treatment !
Cheers,
Derek K.
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RE: Dendroaspis viridis ( Western Green Mamba)
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by Ferdelance_1 on July 27, 2003
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Hello, Snakeman1982,
Myanmar, (formerly Burma), is still one of the most primitive countries on the planet! Therefore, quite logically medical treatment is very limited in villages, or non-existant in remote areas of the tropical rainforest. Bites occur often, because of the multitude of venomous serpents that thrive in this rich haven of flora, and because humans in this particular region/other regions fail to wear proper footgear. The estimated venomous snakebite fatality figure of 10,000 still seems high, however, with the possibility of three species (?) of Naja, (Cobras), five species of Bungarus, (Kraits), three species Calliophis/Maticora & Sinomicrurus, (Asiatic Coral Snakes), fourteen species (-1 ?) of Vipers, ( especially Daboia !!!),and finally O. hannah, (King Cobra); it isn't entirely impossible to obtain such a human mortality rate.
As to your question concerning snakebite envenomation and the utilization of antivenom. Antivenom is utilized in many cases as a "last resort", and is not administered, (because a bad reaction to the antivenom can kill you just as dead as the venom itself), unless other life saving devices such as respirators and other medications fail to stabilized the patient. To put things completely into perspective, Australia has modern medical facilities = low snakebite mortality rate, and Myanmar doesn't = High snakebite mortality rate.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Derek K.
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RE: Dendroaspis viridis ( Western Green Mamba)
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by elapid62 on July 27, 2003
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Hey Derek, Thanks for the help. As you may know I was a great fan of DR. Joe Slowinski. Who spent a lot of time in Bruma. I was reading the other day where in Burma, 10.000 people a year die from cobra bites alone. I have had antevenin a few times. and the last almost killed me. so it is as bad as the bite now. like most any venomous snakes keepers. I have just got a new green mamba not long back. and I am trying to learn more about the snakes , and it's venom. I have keeped many of the elapids, from kings, kraits, spitters, and even one young blk. mamba. (But only for a short time) So my mamba exp. is nill. therefore I do not deal with anything outside of just what I have to with it. Thanks again Derek. Russ
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RE: Dendroaspis viridis ( Western Green Mamba)
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by billt6 on June 17, 2006
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Sir in simple math 0.8 relates to 8 tenths of 1 milligram of venom. 0.25 relates to 1 fourth of a milligram a much smaller amount having the same effect thus more potent. from Bill Quinn at n0ryx@juno.com I hope this helps.
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