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BITE PROTOCOLS
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by JoeCrotalid on September 1, 2011
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Do you feel that all venomous keepers should have bite protocols for each species within their collection? What information do you believe should be contained within a bite protocol? If a bite protocol was available saving you the time it would take to research and prepare it, How much would you be willing to pay for a professionally prepared bite protocol?
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RE: BITE PROTOCOLS
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by Ptk on September 1, 2011
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Joe,
Yes - I do believe responsible venomous keepers should and most I know do. Specie specific? The more specific the better but this will of course change from time to time. I do have a issue with the one size fits all protocol. I believe part of a good protocol factors in the variables of the keeper and not just that of the snake. The keepers; age, weight, medications, allergies, previous envenomations and their treatments, heart conditions, blood pressure issues, pace makers, contact lists, medical treatment plans, DNR's, living wills, medical power of attorneys, etc............ A "store bought" bite protocol would be better thought of as a skeleton each keeper would need to build on and NOT a finished product. For this "skeleton" I would pay between $50-$100 as with most legal fill in the blank products from LegalZoom.com or any of those type services.
just my opinion anyway - good luck. Patrick
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RE: BITE PROTOCOLS
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by JoeCrotalid on September 1, 2011
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Actually Patrick, that is quite helpful and insightful. The protocols that I sell through the Florida Snakebite are species specific protocols, and each protocol contains species information (common names, geographic origin, description, prey), Venom information (Composition, average venom yield from milking, Venom LD50, envenomation rate), Clinical effects of envenomation, Pre-hospital Care, Emergency Department care (Labs, diagnostics, medications), Admission vs Discharge information, Species specific antivenin information, Antivenin administration information and procedure, Special considerations (i.e. need or should I say information against fasciotomies, etc.) and a list of possible consultants with contact information to call for assistance with envenomations. This is then ended with a list of references used to compile the protocol. The individual protocol is then packaged in a folder with a label on the cover identifying the species that is covered within.
For certain individuals I have done what I call an emergency medical sheet containing a list of current medications, allergies, medical history, blood type if known, tetanus status, record of any previous envenomations and antivenins received, Emergency contacts, Primary Care physician and contact info, and any special requests information such as "Contact this person in the event of envenomation."
I say your post is enlightening because I have been selling an individual species protocol for $5.00, Multi-species protocols (i.e. Bitis genus multi-species protocol) for $15.00, and a complete Binder of all protocols for $150.00. Plus mailing costs. If the medical sheet is requested, it is an additional $10.00. But you have given me more things to consider such as an informed consent form to administer non-FDA approved antivenins (exotic species) or expired antivenins, living will or advance directive type stuff as well.
The thing I find amusing is that I get inquiries from people, quote them the price, and never hear back from them. I also had one person criticize me on a forum for selling the protocols saying if I was doing it for the good of the hobby, I would put them on the internet and make them available for free. To date, everyone that has purchased my protocols has been happy with them or at least said so, and to date my protocols have been used to treat 2 Gaboon Viper envenomations. In both cases the treating physician and zoo personnel who reviewed them said they were extremely helpful. Furthermore, multiple zoos, breeders and hospitals have purchased protocols and implemented them into their facility protocols. I was also asked by one hospital to write their snakebite standing orders and admission order forms for the facility.
I do thank you for your insight.
Joe
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RE: BITE PROTOCOLS
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by CanadianSnakeMan on September 6, 2011
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My protocols have a cover page on the outside of the binder with a colour picture of the snake, the antivenin(s) to use with that species, expert consultation contact numbers, my medical history as well as blank spaces for the time of envenomation, location of bite and any current prescriptions (these may change periodically so I don't have to keep changing out my cover page every time I'm on something new).
There is a marker attached to each species' binder to fill in the blanks.
Inside I have 3 sections for every protocol. The first is immediate snakebite first aid for that species as well as general dos and don'ts. The second contains more detailed treatment protocols for use by hospital staff. It includes treating local and systemic effects and considerations for the use of antivenin. The third section has medical case reports of other bites from that species and/or lab studies of the venom composition.
I have designed every protocolto be very user-friendly and easily understandable, with the important points (especially in the first aid section) bolded and underlined. I did this realizing that if I am incapacitated, my panicked rescuer and (probably) hapless ER staff would need a no-nonsense treatment guide since we almost never see any venomous snakebites here.
I don't really see the need of buying bite protocols. Anyone with half a brain and an internet connection can make one themselves if they want to put the time into doing the research... and treatment with snakebite is never read from a playbook anyway, with each case having its own unique challenges.
Note: The World Health Organization has some AMAZING free publications that you can download on PDF which outline treatment of snakebite in Africa ans Asia respectively and are meant specifically for medical personnel... A great addition to any safety protocol if you keep snakes from those areas.
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RE: BITE PROTOCOLS
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by Rob_Carmichael on September 11, 2011
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I'll chime in. We purchased Joe's protocols because he has done all of the work for us. And, it's exceptional work too. There's a lot of garbage out there and Joe's protocols are rock solid, well organized, and meet all of our requirements for emergency personnel, insurance, and emergency protocols. Joe, I actually need another full set so I'll contact you this week (I need to have two sets but I already have quite a few of your's).
Good work Joe!
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RE: BITE PROTOCOLS
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by CharlieO on September 12, 2011
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One of the things I've noted frequently in bite threads is an apparent consensus that medical staff are often wary of advise from sources other than physicians. Assuming my perception to be correct, would there be value in having physicians with appropriate expertise vet protocols from those who are selling them? I'm just wondering whether this would be helpful in those situations where staff may be leery...
Charlie O
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RE: BITE PROTOCOLS
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by JoeCrotalid on September 16, 2011
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Actually Charlie, my protocols have already been used by 3 different hospitals in the treatment of 2 Gaboon Viper and a Brazillian Lancehead envenomation, and have both sent correspondence at how helpful they were in guiding treatment. Furthermore, if the individual, zoo, breeder, etc. has a relationship with the hospital, the hospital is usually more accepting of their expertise and information including protocols provided to the hospital staff.
In addition, I am not just some keeper or business selling protocols. I am an ER Nurse who also worked for Poison Control specializing in snakebites with more than 20 years experience and I am on the the Poison Center list of experts in snakebite. The other thing that makes the protocols more reputable is that they also contain the references used to obtain the information.
And Canadiansnakeman, you are right that anyone with half a brain and the internet can make a protocol, but given the amount of misinfomation on the internet and the fact that many people do not have access to many of the medical sites, journals, or data bases that I have, there protocols most likely would lack much of the information that mine contain. In addition, it takes time to reseach and create a protocol which many people especially businesses, zoos, institutions, breeders don't have the time to do. Furthermore, there are a number of people just as Rob above who can vouch for my protocols. Plus, do you actually think a physician is going to follow something someone just prints off a web site or something that is packaged in a professional manner?
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RE: BITE PROTOCOLS
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by Ptk on September 18, 2011
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Joe,
Just a suggestion, but perhaps you could post the first 2-3 pages of a typical protocol you have done or the table of contents (like books on amazon.com). Not enough that your giving away your work but enough people that do not know you or your reputation could see just how "detailed" and "professional" your protocols actually are. You are right there is a lot of mis-information on the Internet. Please dont take this personally, when marketing on the world wide web you will be presenting to those (like me) that do not know you personally, your local references or even those that have endorsed you here. In this case I believe a stronger selling point would be a quick glance of your work and let it speak for itself.
again... just a suggestion!
Good luck
PTK
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RE: BITE PROTOCOLS
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by JHarrison on September 20, 2011
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Joe, Well stated. Part of our issues with medical care costs and treatments hang on the legal systems view of what the medical staff do. We need oversite but not every mistake is a lawsuit. Legal issues push up all costs. Brazil provides free antivenin (or use to) and free medical care. There are trade offs . Of course there is. Reality is when humans and greed get involved all bets are off. In above post on CroFab I got the evil socialized medicine arguement. I say quit playing the victim Americans you can not have both ways cheap drugs etc with the system we have now. Socialism no but right to medical care as an America yes. The two are not the same. See my other post. Flame away.
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