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RE: Should Reptiles be Kept in Zoo's ? Not Really.
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by lanceheads on November 25, 2011
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Exactly Doug. I was going to say, there are no regs from the AZA regarding reptiles. I have participated in 6 AZA accredidation inspections. I know the current rules for inspection, etc.
This guy doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.
I have worked AZA facilities since 1985. As far as people getting bit in AZA approved zoo's, it's laughable that he say's the zoo's would be shut down. You and I both worked at zoo's where we had a snakebite. Did we get shut down? hahahahahahahahha.
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RE: Should Reptiles be Kept in Zoo's ? Not Really.
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by tomhartman on November 27, 2011
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Well lanceheads I find it disturbing that you have worked in AZA accredited zoos and are not even familiar with their regulations. If you look at the 2011 edition of the accreditation standards and related policies, which can be found here: http://www.aza.org/uploadedFiles/Accreditation/Accreditation%20Standards.pdf , and which I always keep a copy of for my personal private facility, you will see that there are numerous regulations for reptiles and amphibians and other blanket regulations which cover the way that accredited facilities should be run in general. Some of these regulations regarding reptiles include multiple veterinary visits, CBC/blood chemistries, paramyxo-viral titers for all viperids, incoming quarantine for 30 days, and full post-mortem examination and histopathology on all animals dying while in quarantine. They also have regulations regarding contact with the general public. Such regulations state that: As outlined by the AZA and the USDA’s Animal Welfare Act, animal contact areas should always be supervised by a trained zoo representative. Which would kind of contradict the idea that zoo’s can send people home with animals for breeding projects or aid in the acquisition of reptiles or amphibians. And even if they were to do so if people got ever got sick or injured from the animals they would probably try to sue the zoo’s which would lead to a bunch of problems. Salmonella is a very common illness that could be transferred from specimens to humans. The AZA regulations go on to say that: Risks of transmission [of salmonella] can be reduced in two ways: 1) avoid all direct contact with reptiles or surfaces with which they have come in contact or, 2) allow only supervised contact followed by hand washing as previously described. In addition to these regulations specifically regarding reptiles as I said early there are other blanket regulations that would affect the housing of reptiles as well. Here is more scholarly info regarding the suggested keeping of reptiles that the AZA puts out as well:
http://www.aza.org/uploadedFiles/Conservation/Commitments_and_Impacts/Amphibian_Conservation/Amphibian_Resources/Herp_Outreach_Recommendations_2008.pdf
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RE: Should Reptiles be Kept in Zoo's ? Not Really.
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by tomhartman on November 27, 2011
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So again, like Doug Hotle (aka AquaHerp) the "experts?" who frequent this site have been caught intentionally lying to members of the public who may be reading these threads for information and purposely misleading them. If you guys remember correctly, Doug Hotle tried to argue that hybridizing venomous snakes would not generate new disintegrins, something which was so blatantly wrong that he cannot even be given the excuse of ignorance and must just be considered an outright lie. BTW Doug, it seems you are up to your same old tricks of not getting into details and just arguing from authority (a logical fallacy and sign of being emotionally disturbed) so that you just appear right without being informative- as usual. They should change the name of this website to name calling and Ad-hominem attacks.org. For your information Doug I am aware that the public and private sector may work together on some fundamental level, however, it is nowhere near what needs to be done, and even if it was, zoos still cost tax payers millions of dollars and don’t need to exist when the private sector can do the job just as well while generating revenue, creating jobs, and helping conserve more animals.
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RE: Should Reptiles be Kept in Zoo's ? Not Really.
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by tomhartman on November 27, 2011
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Please, AquaHerp, why don't you post some of this information that is out there and show how I " only twist a small portion of it." And Time, I could probably pass an AZA inspection as well since I try to adhere to AZA standards also. However, my point was that generally,I doubt members of the public would be brining little frogs to the vet or doing fecal smears or floats for their snakes. The bureaocratic system would have to become practical which is something that it is incapable of doing.
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RE: Should Reptiles be Kept in Zoo's ? Not Really.
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by lanceheads on November 27, 2011
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What the AZA covers is basic info that all private keepers should adhere to, and you know that. (housing, caging, quarantine, vet care, etc.)How many inspections have you actually been on?
I would assume none, so I have to assume you haven't a clue what your talking about.
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RE: Should Reptiles be Kept in Zoo's ? Not Really.
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by AquaHerp on November 27, 2011
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Tommy. No, you are not involved in any conservation work along with zoos. Nor will you ever be.
Look, you are evidentially not even smart enough to do your research, or understand what you are reading.
I'm not going to argue your silly little rants that have no basis other than your own delusions.
How about we just leave it at this: This is why I am sitting where I am, and you are sitting where you are.
:) Have a nice day.
Some of us have real work to do.
DH
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RE: Should Reptiles be Kept in Zoo's ? Not Really.
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by lanceheads on November 27, 2011
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Doug, we both know this wannabe snake keeper guy, Tommy,is a troll, and we had fun poking him in the eye with a sharp stick, pointing out the errors of his ways, but we need to let him heal! Quit feeding this troll. IGNORE this 'tard.
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RE: Should Reptiles be Kept in Zoo's ? Not Really.
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by AquaHerp on November 27, 2011
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Sigh... here’s your “truth”.
1. 95% of all reptiles can be kept in the home? Where is this established? Barely 20% of the species are evn managed in private or public collections. Do the math!
2. I am lying, and ignorant of disintigrins? My little troll friend, I did this for a living and still remain heavily involved. You cannot even seem to understand what is written on paper (by those of us who have done it). I have yet to see ANY proof that hybridizing snakes will produce a new disintigrin. Not a single paper. Your earlier rant suggested some work that was done in vivo, never from a hybrid snake. On the contrary, multiple papers on hybridized snake venoms show exactly the opposite! You need to grasp how venoms are created in the first place. Do the research yourself. It will take all of about 5 minutes. Again, you lack the understanding of what you are ranting about.
Read up in:
Snake Venoms- Lee CY, 1979
Snake Venom Poisoning , Russle FE, 1980
Handbook on Toxinology, Shier TW and Mebs D, 1990
Snake Toxins; International Encyclopedia of Pharmacology and Therapeutics, harvey AL, Vol. 134 ,1990
Handbook of Natural Toxins, Tu AT, Vol. 5. 1991
Venomous Reptiles, Minton SA, 1969
Snake Venoms and Envenomations, Chippaux, 2006
Shall I go on?
Read-
Aird, SD et al. Venoms and morphology of western diamondback/Mojave rattlesnake hybrids. Journal of Herpetology 1989; 23 (2); 131-141
Or
Wilkinson, JA et al. Distribution and genetic variation in Venom A and B populations of the Mojave rattlesnake (Crotalus s. scutulatus) in Arizona; Herpetologica, 1991; 47(1) 54-68
I happen to have all of these on my shelf...do you? My circle of collegues includes the late Sherman Minton, John C. Perez, Elda E. Sanchez, Bryan G. Fry, Steven Seifert, Dan Keyler and about three pages more. And yours? You can’t even post here without having to lie about who you are and what you have done. Remeber the Master in Zoology? Working Zoologist....and those were in the very first post. I’m comfortable with where I sit. I’ll put my credentials and experience against yours even on my worst day.
Let’s continue, shall we?
3. Almost all zoos need money from the government? Where do you get this? Roughly 70% of all AZA accredited zoos are non-profit and are not tied in any way to the government, hence your tax dollars. (but you’d need a job to fathom that).
4. Myth that reptiles are dangerous? Funny, you are the strongest advocate of butchering snakes to render them venomoid. If they aren't dangerous....why are you so scared? Don't say it's about education. There is no educational value in holding venomous snakes and waving them in people’s faces. It's entirely an ego thing for those who want to show off and yet are petrified of the real thing. Wow, I am truly impressed.
Do you want to talk jobs, conservation, economics.... okay. Here ya go.
Economic Engines
AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums enhance local and regional economies, collectively generating $16 billion in annual economic activity and supporting more than 142,000 jobs. 16 Billion, I guess even though you say the private sector outnumbers zoos, according to my math 16 is better than 3? 142,000 jobs” Hardly an economic drain. That does not even include the peripheral companies that supply crickets, rodents, caging, handling equipment......
Community Assets
As centers for conservation involvement, AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums provide the public with essential connections to the natural world. 225 AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums attract more than 179 million visitors every year. Approximately 50 million visitors are children, making accredited zoos and aquariums essential family-friendly, community-based assets.
AZA zoos attract more visitors annually than all of the sporting events “combined”. Not bad for something so hated by so many, eh?
Strong Public Support
According to a 2008 national public opinion survey [i] 79 percent of Americans believe that zoos and aquariums are good for their local economy, and an impressive 80 percent believe that zoos and aquariums are important enough to local communities to be supported by government funding.
Whoa!!!! Did that say 80%, sure did. That’s much gooder than your “findings”.
Science Education
In the last 10 years, AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums formally trained more than 400,000 teachers, supporting science curricula with effective teaching materials and hands-on opportunities. A 2009 National Research Council report found "abundant evidence that these programs and settings, contribute to people's knowledge and interest in science" and that they can "significantly improve outcomes for individuals from groups that are historically under represented in science."
I have seen the youtube videos and the forum rants and the likes of yourself and Raymond Hoser....do you really feel you are educating? (no need for an answer)
I do see a lot of press coming from the private sector..ummmmm...hardly good for either the hobby or the species.
Saving Endangered Species
AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums are leaders in the protection of endangered species. The AZA Species Survival Plan (SSP) Program is a long-term plan for conservation breeding, habitat preservation, field conservation, and supportive research to ensure survival for many of the planet's threatened and endangered species.
Let's look at one animal here, a herp. The desert tortoise. The biggest threat facing them now is Mycoplasma. Guess where that came from? The private sector releasing tortoises. Yeah, that was helpful. How about Chytrid, the scourge of the amphibian world. Ever consider how it gets around so fast? Yep..... http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21133-frogkiller-disease-was-born-in-trade.html
Zoo & Aquarium Field Conservation
While AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums provide society the opportunity to develop unparalleled personal connections with the animals in their care, they also serve as conservation centers that are concerned about ecosystem health, take responsibility for species survival, and make substantial contributions to research, conservation, and education.
AZA Zoos contribute over 10 million a year in money towards conservation efforts OUTSIDE of zoos.
Reintroduction Programs
Reintroduction programs for animals raised or rehabilitated in AZA-accredited zoos or aquariums are powerful mechanisms used for stabilizing, re-establishing, or increasing in situ animal populations. AZA and the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources/Species Survival Commission play key roles in advancing the science of reintroduction programs that AZA and its accredited zoos and aquariums participate in. Numerous reference materials and tools have been developed to advance reintroduction programs.
We are not talking about introducing Burmese pythons to the Glades or Red-eared sliders to California....
Zoo & Aquarium Sustainable Practices
Conservation of wildlife requires conservation of natural resources. AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums are implementing numerous sustainable practices within their own business operations. AZA has developed many mechanisms to encourage and facilitate this effort including the development of a Green Guide, Green Tool Box, Green Award, and Affinity Purchasing Partnerships.
Initiatives
AZA and its accredited zoos and aquariums are involved in many large-scale conservation initiatives that address a multitude of related issues. AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums are involved in conservation breeding, habitat preservation, public education, field conservation, and supportive research to ensure survival for many of the planet's threatened or endangered species.
Oh, don't get me wrong Tommy. I've seen many a place that private herpers visit to collect. Overturned rocks, demolished logs, trash, grafitti... Way to promote private collecting and keeping!
Partnerships
AZA develops valuable conservation partnerships to increase member and public awareness of animal related conservation issues. Extensive effort is expended to save species from imminent extinction by determining the best ex situ ways to care for, reproduce, reintroduce, and re-establish in situ populations including the California condor, Wyoming toad, red wolf, Hawaiian birds, and black-footed ferret.....
Pssssstttt....none of these are hybrids ;)
Funding
With its more than 220 accredited members, AZA continues to build North America's largest wildlife conservation movement. Since 1991, the AZA Conservation Endowment Fund (CEF), which supports the cooperative conservation-related scientific and educational initiatives of AZA, its members, and its collaborators, has provided almost $5 million to 280 conservation projects worldwide.
Research
AZA believes that a commitment to scientific research is a trademark of the modern zoological park and aquarium. AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums conduct or facilitate research, both in in-situ and ex-situ settings, to advance our scientific knowledge of the animals in our care and enhance the conservation of wild populations. Many AZA-accredited institutions incorporate superior behavioral training programs into their routine schedules to facilitate sensory, cognitive, and physiological research investigations.
Conservation Connection
Annually, more than 60,000 people invest over 3,000,000 hours supporting their communities by volunteering at zoos and aquariums.
Hardly the "we hate zoos" mentality that you speak of. Last I knew, there didn't seem to be a lot of communist volunteer work.
By the way... all of this is posted on the same AZA site you keep trying to vomit up info from. Hence why we say you cannot seem to do basic research. I give your rant an F- and that’s being gracious.
_____________________________________________________
So.... top that. The private sector can't even get it together long enough to attend a single hearing on reptile bans! The private sector cant get it together long enough to project a positive image to stop these bans. Do you seriously think you can get it together enough to take on conservation programs? Especially when people like you don't even understand basic genetics and the risks of translocation and seeding with pet animals? Seriously? I'm not saying some out there can't do it, they certainly can. You my friend are not among them. I know many in the private sector that are sharp as a tack. It’s the ones that are as sharp as a bowling ball that I worry about.
So, there are the undisputed facts. Not conjecture, just facts. Given that we have now taken apart your entire thread, I (we) really have nothing else to say to you. Please don't wait for another response from me. Perhaps you can go back to reading your little Wikipedia definitions and trying to fold those into some type of intelligent sounding rant. (You can’t even seem to understand those). Another epic moment in "fail".
This concludes our lesson for the day. Actually, for good. I will not waste any more time on your immature ramblings. I have some work to finish on conservation for publication and work on amphibian biosecurity designs. I’d share with you, but it’s over your head.
For the rest of the readers, keep doing what you’re doing in spite of people like this clown. The private sector has a good shot at surviving and aiding in conservation goals. We just need to pull a few weeds first.
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RE: Should Reptiles be Kept in Zoo's ? Not Really.
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by AquaHerp on November 27, 2011
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Yes Randal.... I'm done now. It was a nice little break from writing up the proposed ruling to list our garter snakes as federally endangered (ESA listing) based upon our findings from this summer. Plus, hammering out curriculum for the Venomous Workshop.
I wonder what Tommy was working on today? (pssstttt...SpongeBob)
DH
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RE: Should Reptiles be Kept in Zoo's ? Not Really.
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by AquaHerp on November 27, 2011
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Sorry...one last one. AZA was founded (as AAZPA) decades ago by zoos and aquariums to govern "themselves", to project a better image, to operate by a code of ethics and so on., before too many regulations and senseless bans were shoved down their throats. The AZA is a PRIVATE association and in no way shape or form is a governmental entity. Let alone, a communist machine. They govern and protect their own rights. They owe you nothing! Again....they owe you NOTHING!!!!
There are great people in the private sector, many of them. But there are also a great many that stand around whining and pointing their finger at everyone else as if all of this is their fault. Like a little spoiled brat.
What does the private sector need to do?
Get together to govern "themselves", to project a better image, to operate by a code of ethics and so on, before too many regulations and senseless bans are shoved down your throats Sound familiar?
Tommy can’t even have a sane conversation with his peers and yet wants to blame others? Stop crying and blaming those that have already did what they needed to do, when they needed to do it. The ball has been in your court for decades, you just keep dropping it.
DH
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