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respiratory infections in "Hots"
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by katon on November 20, 2011
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Whenever im asked,"what do you do when one of your venomous snakes gets sick" i have always replied that i have my herp loving vet to call and we work out the problem and figure out the solution. Now im in a case where that isnt an option for while and i have currently a new rhino viper that has a mild RI. Now normally when my vet and i figure things out i end up giving various injections or orally administer things etc. I have been talking with other herpers who have told me that they use a fogger to pump the meds into the cage and the animal then breathes it in. This sounds like it would less stressful for all the parties involved im just not sure of how effective it is. I was thinking of ordering from an avian site some liquid baytril and using that since its in lower doses and would be easier to measure what do you all think of this method? thanks
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RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
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by CanadianSnakeMan on November 20, 2011
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Baytril causes local tissue damage when injected intramuscularly. Intraperitoneal injections can cause internal damage and necrosis. With that in mind, I'd be very cautious using Baytril as an inhalant.
With the method you're talking about, there would be no way to get an accurate idea of medication aerosolized vs medication absorbed. You could either get too low of a concentration to do any good, or so much that you could damage the lung. Finding the perfect balance could be very tricky.
Try lowering the humidity and increasing the temperature to 'dry out' the infection. If it is indeed a minor infection then supportive care may be all that's needed. Or if that's not an option, I'd opt for injectable Baytril/Amikacin.
Keep us posted with updates!
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RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
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by agkistrodude on November 21, 2011
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I used to use baytril.It's a very effective anti-biotic, but a lot of times it was hard to get without a vets prescription. I too found some on an fowl website (chickens) that was available, but sometimes they had it, and sometimes they didn't. Then someone told me about Tylon50. It's available at any farm/feed supply store, (Tractor Supply carries it)without a prescription. I tried it and it works great.(And it's A LOT cheaper than Baytril) I've treated several RI's with it, and a couple mouth abscesses. Worked as good or better than Baytril without the skin "blisters". Dose it the same as you would Baytril, 5 mg/kg SQ/IM q 48h. And for the record, I'm NOT a vet, and I'm NOT giving medical advise, just relaying some info that I've used with great success. Take care, Marty
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RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
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by katon on November 21, 2011
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Thanks for the responses guys. I have already commenced the increase in supportive care.With the inhalation of the baytril that was my exact concern not being able to accuretly gauge the dosing due to the crap shoot of what is actually being inhaled. I have read periodically about tylon but never tried it i think i may go to the local feed store and try that route via injection. Its tried and true and i dont want to begin experimenting on this little guy if i dont have to. Thanks again and any one else with any thoughts on this topic please feel free to chime in.
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RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
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by CanadianSnakeMan on November 21, 2011
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If your rhino is feeding well, you may want to consider oral Baytril injected into small prey items. I've recently been made aware that contrary to popular belief, Baytril actually can be absorbed through the gut. I don't know much about Tylon so perhaps that would be better for your needs.
Just something to consider.
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RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
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by katon on November 21, 2011
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he was feeding well, though now he has no interest in food so that leaves me to believe the infection is advancing. Im going to keep his conditions set up to fight the infection and try IM shots of tylon with the little guy tubed. I have tons of the oral tablets of the baytril that i keep on hand as well but will try a 10 or so day treatment routine with the shots of tylon and keep this updated as i go. any advice would be welcomed in advance, thanks guys.
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RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
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by theemojohnm on November 21, 2011
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While I use a similar fogger system, in some of my shift boxes, for some treatments (and increased humidity in some amphibian enclosures), there are a few reasons that I can think of why this would absolutely NOT be an appropriate treatment option:
1. Most of the antibiotic drugs used to treat infection of the respiratory tract, are not intended to be used via this route of administration, and would likely just increase irritation.
2. Unlike oral administration of an appropriate antibiotic (such as injecting a F/T rodent with the drug), you have NO way of knowing what kind of dose the animal is actually getting. (How much is he actually inhaling versus how much is escaping into the air?).
3. If we are talking about a RESPIRATORY infection, inhalation seems like the least appropriate route of administration of medication, in most cases, in my opinion..
4. Basically sums up the above. It would be EXTREMELY wasteful, as you would have no idea how much of the drug the snake actually inhaled (or the effectiveness of what it did inhale), and the rest of the drug would essentially be vaporized out into the air.
To be truly effective, you would likely have to close off the air holes, and block most of the ventilation in the cage, to keep the drug (now is gas form) from escaping. Non-ventilated, stagnant air, is the WORST thing you could do for a reptile with any sort of RI.
Also, because the drug will be vaporized at this point, you will also be introducing water vapor into the enclosure, and increasing humidity a ton. Several forms of respiratory issues are CAUSED by excessively moist, humid air. (Although, the are some instances where an increase in humidity is beneficial, this does not seem to be one of those rarer cases).
I have ports installed on some of my shift-boxes (usually large Elapids) that I can administer medication through (usually for anesthetizing an animal for medical treatment). But, there are plenty of drugs that should work fine, orally, for this application. I applaud you for wanting to lessen the stress on the animal, but in this case, I think the added stress of proper treatment, outweighs the lack of apparent benefit, and even possible further irritation, via this route of drug administration.
If we’re dealing with a typical respiratory tract infection, inhalation is the LEAST appropriate form of drug administration, in my opinion. (Some drugs ARE designed to be used this way, but there are many other, usually substantially more effective and easier options)..
My favorite method of introducing oral antibiotics, is injecting a food item with the drug, if the animal is feeding. That way, you administer an accurate dose, and the animal is under no more stress than it is under a normal feeding scenario.
For inhalation to have ANY benefit (antibiotic in the case of typical RI), you would have to block of the ventilation in the cage, increase the humidity by a huge margin (the drug, in vaporized form), AND there would be no way to gauge the dosage actually administered. And if inhaled (in the form of an RI), I would think that it would probably just irritate things further. A poor-ventilated, stagnant, humid cage, in the worst environment for a reptile with a typical respiratory infection.
Take Care,
-J. Mendrola
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RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
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by theemojohnm on November 21, 2011
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Oops, sorry.. Started typing and then went to eat. Finished posting and just realized that this thread has already gotten five replies!
Nice to see this kind of activity here lately! Lets keep it going, guys..
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RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
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by theemojohnm on November 21, 2011
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And.. I was hoping Luke would notice this thread, and I agree 100% with his advise. I would try to INCREASE the ventilation to the cage, and DECREASE humidity. That is why the use of a fogger just seems counter-productive, to me. Snakes are pretty resilient, and usually minor infections will clear up on their own.
I just feel that using a fogging system, and increasing humidity, while decreasing ventilation, is only going to make things worse. Stagnant, stale, humid, air is no good for a reptile with a typical RI.
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RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
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by CanadianSnakeMan on November 21, 2011
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John,
Agreed on all counts.
Sean,
If he's not feeding then I think you're left with no other option than what you already plan to do.
Let us konw how the Tylon worked out. If you have good results with it I might consider picking some up for myself.
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