|
RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
|
Reply
|
|
by Rob_Carmichael on November 22, 2011
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
This is why having a good reptile vet to consult with is a critical component of long term health of an animal. We've used Fortaz with great success with RI situations. With that being said, there are so many bacteria out there that its important to know if you are dealing with gram positive or gram negative bacteria and the type as well. Some antibiotics do no good for certain conditions. Additionally, having treated many snakes with RI (rescues that we take in), I have actually found that increasing humidity (while maintaining excellent air flow) works far better. The delicate mucous membranes, when dried out, can actually become very irritated and inflamed when kept in too dry of conditions. Maintaining optimal humidity with good air flow assists those herps who require humidity to fight infection as dry conditions can actually exasberate the symptoms. Just another point of view. There's some great info on these threads which is great to see. Obviously, there's a number of ways to achieve success so when in doubt, consult with your vet.
|
| |
|
RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
|
Reply
|
|
by Time on November 22, 2011
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Same here. Fortaz is the drug of choice by most herp vets that are up to speed with current drug usage.
|
| |
|
RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
|
Reply
|
|
by theemojohnm on November 22, 2011
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I agree Rob, and like you stated, "optimal" humidity is what we're aiming for, especially when we deal with typical respiratory infections, and resulting inflammation.
However, the idea of vaporizing enrofloxacin, with the use of a fogger is certainly going to create extreme humidity, well above the optimal level. And, since enrofloxacin is not approved for, or designed to be given via this route of administration, I can only see it complicating matters, and probably just increasing irritation of the inflamed tissue(s).
It actually is a rather clever idea, but it doesn't take long to see the detrimental see of this application. For veterinary anesthetic drugs, gas ports installed of shift-boxes are great to have, and make things much less stressful for yourself, and the animals. However, the drugs used in that application are designed to be administered via inhalation, and have a wider therapeutic dosage range. And, in the case of a shift-box, you are only gassing a small chamber, with the animal inside. When I built my mamba cages, I installed tubing ports onto the end of the shift-box. The animal slides into the tube, and I'll usually gas (or my good friend , and vet, Dan will gas) the animal, directly inside the restraining tube. The entire shift box can be gassed if needed, but that makes gauging doses harder, and is much more wasteful. I greatly prefer gassing directly in the restraining tube.
I definitely do not think that I would ever gas an entire enclosure, even with a drug that was intended to be administered via inhalation.
While in my experience, a lot of the respiratory issues that I see are caused by poor cage ventilation, and excessive, stagnant humidity, you do bring up a good point.. Certainly keeping the animal TOO dry, is going to be detrimental as well. My general protocol IS to keep an animal a bit on the drier side of it's normal humidity range during an RI (say 70%-75% relative humidity, instead of the normal 80%, just as an example), but you definitely don't want to drop humidity too far below the normal range, and I think that is a great point..
That is one husbandry-related issue that a lot of people make, surprisingly; both lack of ventilation, and excess moisture. That is one of the main points that I have been preaching for a long time now. And, it's also the reason that I tend to prefer non-organic substrates (recalling our discussion on this site, on the use of non-organic gravels as substrate). Even tropical reptile species need constant access to a dry area. Excessive moisture not only leads to fungal growth, and bacterial growth, but will cause respiratory-related issues, as well as topical skin conditions..
On the flipside though, I didn't mean to completely dry the enclosure out, in my previous post, and I'm glad you brought that up. Humidity isn't bad; excessive, and stagnant humidity, is..
As for the ceftazidime recommendation; I also concur.. Ceftazidime is a good drug, and is almost equally effective against gram-positive, and gram-negative bacterial infections, and it has a pretty wide range of applications. In some cases, more specific drugs are required, but I have treated many RI's with Fortaz, with good results.
Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, and I missed it.. But, has the snake shown any interest in feeding..? Any noticeable “wheezing” or “gasping” behavior..?
Take Care,
-J. Mendrola
|
| |
|
RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
|
Reply
|
|
by katon on November 22, 2011
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Wow this is exactly the kind of chat session i was hoping for and im very thankful for everyones input. I agree with using a well versed vet first unfortuantly for the time being it isnt an option till he is back on his feet.
the rhino isnt feeding, he was but now he has no interest and he does produce a noticable wheez so to speak when he gets defensive. he isnt frothing or bubbling out of his nose or mouth at this point. The humidty in his cage is a flowing air system so it isnt stagnant (though i cant say what it was like from the previous owners set up) and i have it lowered than his normal protocol would call for. Also my partner was offering him food at one point and when he kept pestering him the rhino made a noise that reminded me of what a tokay gecko makes when defensive and thats when it became more definitive (in our eyes) that it had advanced. Im going to start a tylan protocol and also have blood drawn and shipped out to test to get a better bead on what is going on.
again thanks for all the advice and i have to say im very pleased with the indepth knowledge and points being shot around. Like i said the fogger idea was just a off the cuff idea and i figured who better to adress it to than you guys
|
| |
|
RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
|
Reply
|
|
by CanadianSnakeMan on November 22, 2011
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Just to clear up any misunderstandings - I never said to drop down to zero humidity, and Rob is absolutely right, too low is a bod thing, but so is too high. When the air is saturated with water vapour to the extent that there is no room left in it to evaporate secretions from the lungs, the secretions could build up to dangerous levels. Bacteria and fungi also thrive in moist environments.
Something else that John touched on that I feel would be important to note is fungal growth - especially with stagnant, highly humid conditions. Fungal respiratory infections tend to be more prevelant when combined with a compromised immune system (take the example of human AIDS patients), both of which could be a possibility when your snake comes from unknown origins. to echo what Rob said, getting a culture and sensitivity test is important, and will rule out an infection of fungal origin and indicate the most appropriate antibiotic. This will save you valuable time in experimenting with different treatments and save your snake the stress of unsuccessful attempts at curing the infection. Blood work will not always reveal the type of infection unless it has gone systemic (not good). For an accurate diagnosis, you will have to poke around at the site of the infection - the respiratory tract in this case.
If you don't want a vet to do the C&S test (or if you can't find one willing to get that close to the pointy end of a rhino viper), you can always buy the sterile swab and container (for around $5) from your vet, restrain your viper, hold its mouth open and wait for it to breathe, insert the tip of the swab inside the glottis (make sure ahead of time that you get a swab that will fit) then roll it along the walls of the upper trachea in a twisting motion - just the same as when you get a throat swab for strep. Then simply remove, package and send it immediately off to your vet to take to the laboratory. Most vets will only charge a nominal fee for simple lab work as long as you take the samples yourself.
I hope you and your snake fare well through this infection! Keep us posted.
|
| |
|
RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
|
Reply
|
|
by katon on November 25, 2011
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
ahh, excellent info, i actual went and get the swap/sample test this AM. Again gentlemen thanks for all the advice and great dialogue. I will keep all posted on how my little guy makes out.
|
| |
|
RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
|
Reply
|
|
by AquaHerp on November 25, 2011
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Agreed with what some others have said; Ceftazadine (Fortaz) is a better drug of choice. It is far easier on the kidneys.
DH
|
| |
|
RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
|
Reply
|
|
by varivenom on November 26, 2011
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Just an add on to canadians post. In some parts of the country you find tylon50 in others its tylan50, but the are the same. I use it as well. Works good on neonates. I inject 1 to 3 microliters into pinks and feed with no side effects to date. Baytril to harsh for new borns.
|
| |
|
RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
|
Reply
|
|
by katon on December 1, 2011
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
He died. Before i even had the chance to do anything or even get the results back from his tests and samples. I noticed yesturday a odd looking stool almost looked like a reguritation and i would have thought it was had i not witnessed him pass it. Then i found another spot in his tank where there was what looked to be like urea but of a pea soup coloration. Tonight i heard a noise in the dark from his tank (i was working at my desk on the far side of the room) and the noise was of him turning himself over onto his back (never a good sign) i could see his heart beating and he was breathing fine but his hemipenis was completely swollen and prolapsed and there was a pungent aroma as well coming from his tank. Well from that point on it was only a matter of 20mins or so till he was dead. Im going to try and get a necropsy done. Seems to me this little guy had a hell of a lot more going on than the previous owner suggested at the expo i got him and im going to continue to believe he was a def WC. Damn this stinks he was a good looking rhino as well.
|
| |
|
RE: respiratory infections in "Hots"
|
Reply
|
|
by Crotalusssp on December 2, 2011
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I am very sorry to hear about the loss of the snake. I have been following thread since the beginning and soaking in the information. This is one of the few threads here lately that has good informative discussion. I thankfully rarely deal with disease in any animals (small collection of 8), but knowledge/information gained in this thread could be useful (hope not). Once again sorry for your loss.
Charles
|
| |
|
Email Subscription
You are not subscribed to this topic.
Subscribe!
My Subscriptions
Subscriptions Help
Check our help page for help using
, or send questions, comments, or suggestions to the
Manager.
|
