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mangrove snake
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by speed_demonsc on December 29, 2003
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how bad is the bite of this type of snake
i now it is rearfanged but what is the bite comparable to???
thanks alot
james brewster
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RE: mangrove snake
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by TomT on December 29, 2003
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I don't know if there's really anything it can be compared to. Perhaps the False Water Cobra or another of the mildly toxic rear-fanged snakes. Your biggest worry from a Mangrove snake bite would come from having an allergic reaction, I would expect. Symptoms that I have heard reported from the bite of Mangrove snakes are as follows... numbness at the bite site, headache, swelling and some prolonged bleeding. I doubt there's much chance of a fatality with this species from everything I've heard. I kept three large males for about a year and none of them ever tried to bite me. One note... they are almost catatonic during the daytime, but they are VERY alert and much more aggressive when the sun goes down, so do cage maintenance during the daylight hours and use hooks or gloves and you shouldn't be in much, if any, danger.
Tom T
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RE: mangrove snake
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by Crotalus64 on December 30, 2003
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I have an adult female black mangrove (Boiga d. gemmicincta). She tries to bite me every chance she gets, but she is one of my favorite snakes and never misses a chance to vigorously eat one or two F/T rats. I have a friend that was hospitalized by a blandings tree snake (Boiga blandingi). The people at the hospital heard "snake bite" and were about to give him Wyeth Antivenom. It's good to have a protocol binder with information on allergic reactions and anaphylaxis. Bryan Fry recently published "Analysis of Colubroidea snake venoms by liquid chromatography with mass spectrometry: evolutionary and toxinological implications". I think you can find the PDF at
http://www.venomdoc.com/
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RE: mangrove snake
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Anonymous post on December 30, 2003
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They have some nice teeth, but I have yet to be envenomated. I had a fairly large trio at one time, and I had them in their own vision cages. One of the females used to always hang out on the top ridge of the cages, and one time I overestimated, and she swung down from the top and grabbed the left side of my left hand. It seemed to me that it would be almost DIFFICULT to become envenomated, being that they cant instantly envenomate, they have to chew. I was able to pry her off of me before she chewed far enough to reach the rear fangs. That also may be the reason i say they have nice teeth....me prying the snakes head, and her chewing repeatedly caused teeth to enter and withdraw from my hand, not to mention the fact that she was bordering 8ft.
I have seen the outcome from two bites, nothing of serious danger. They chose the anology of multiple bee stings, and then a hammer. One was bitten in the thumb, and the other bitten in the forearm. There is no apparent prolonged effect, the only thing to show for the bite is a slight scar anymore, and this is only over a few months.
Just to comment from a post above....I believe Hydrodynastes gigas (False water cobra) has a stronger punch than a Boiga dendrophilia (Mangrove snake).
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RE: mangrove snake
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by BGF on December 31, 2003
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Hi mate
The Boiga venoms are packed full of neurotoxic 3FTx (three-finger toxins), the same toxins that are the hallmark of elapid venoms. The toxicity is on par with many elapids, the yield can be 10-20 milligrams but the delivery is not as efficient as in snakes with more highly evolved fang architecture. Typically bites will not be dangerous but very large specimens may be able to cause clinically notable symptoms (but very unlikely to be lethal). I've had two envenomations from 2.2 meter B. dendrophila that produce symptoms best described as 'death adder-lite'. Not life-threatening but still uncomfortable. The venoms are more potent than the Hydrodynastes (which has much weaker venom).
Cheers
Bryan
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
ARC-APD Research Fellow
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit,
Department of Pharmacology,
School of Medicine,
University of Melbourne,
Parkville, Victoria
3010 Australia
Phone 61 3 8344 7753
Fax 61 3 9348 2048
http://www.venomdoc.com
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Happy New Year Venom Doc!
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by TomT on January 1, 2004
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I wrote a reply to the earlier comment about False Water Cobra bites being more "dangerous" than Mangrove snakes, but it appears it went into the ether...
I figure comparing two relatively "safe" species of rear-fanged snake(s) bites is kind of like arguing over how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin. It's an argument that neither participant can "win" as it is impossible to predict how much venom either snake can manage to get into the bite site.... much like trying to predict how "bad" a given species of rattlesnake, or any other venomous snake's bite will be on a given human being on a given day..... it's impossible, given the number of variables associated with snake bite.... will (or won't) the snake inject *any* venom? Will the recipient have a reaction to the venom? (I could go on, but I'll spare you the boring details)
What we (thanks to you, Sir) can do is sit down and study the "quality" and potential "quantity" of venom that *can* be injected by a given species, based on the LD50 charts, and other resources, in an attempt to "rate" the relative "deadliness" of a given group or groups of snakes, and then make an educated decision about what to do in the event of a bite.
In my first attempt at a response I wrote that after being bitten by Naja naja, nothing a Mangrove snake, or False water cobra can do to me is very frightening, BUT.... I do not plan to allow either of them an opportunity to bite and chew on me in the name of science any time soon....
Best wishes to you (BGF) and the rest of the contributors here. May the new year bring happiness to you all, and may you all be safe in everything you do.
Tom Townsend
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RE: Happy New Year Venom Doc!
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by BGF on January 5, 2004
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Happy holidays to you too mate ;-)
The biggest worry about the 'colubrid' envenomations is lack of available antivenom for anything except for a single species in two different families, the Colubrinae snake Dipholidus typus (boomslang) which is expensive and difficult to get and the Natrincinae snake Rhabdophis tigrinus (tiger keelback) which is impossible to get as it is made for Japanese domestic use only, I do have a vial though ;-) None of the other species in the various families have an antivenom and none of the elapid/viper antivenoms are likely to work against something so taxonomically divergent (they don't even work widely within those two families) and the boomslang antivenom doesn't even work against the twig snake so there is no chance of it working against a Psammophis mossambicus for example. Therefore, while they are less likely to get you since they typically (but definately not always) have smaller venom yiels and usually have less efficient venom deliver (mileage may vary though), if they do get you good then you are screwed.
Cheers
Bryan
www.venomdoc.com
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I got a tough question for you.......
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by TomT on January 7, 2004
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I absolutely agree with your observation regarding the near absense of medicines to treat bites from rear-fanged snakes.
I'll see if I can heat things up and ask you if you'd be willing to list those "rear-fanged" snakes that YOU personally feel are threats to human life....
I've "heard" of a few, but I'd like to hear an "off the record" kind of response from you on this list. (or email LOL)
Without making your ego swell too big so as to make it impossible for you to get your head through your office door (LMAO), it is likely true that you are uniquely qualified to answer this question, based on your recent study of rear-fanged snake venoms....
Tom T
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RE: I got a tough question for you.......
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Anonymous post on January 7, 2004
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If you are nice to him I'm sure he will give you the info you want. Bryan is a smart guy and he deserves our respect, at least for all the help he has already given several people on this site. Not to mention the amount of reserch and help he has given to the herpetolgical comunity . I guess you're bitter having someone tell you that a false water cobras bite is not as bad as some of the Boiga species. I wanted to tell you that without being rude, but since you want to be rude, I would like to tell you that if you sqaure off with Bryan you WILL go down (with your tail between your legs). Sorry for kissing @$$ but it frustrates me seeing someone get angry for being told he is incorrect. Lets be mature about this.
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