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RE: Cross-breeding Eastern Diamonbacks and Timbers
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by Chance on June 13, 2004
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Jason, thanks for the tips and advice on how to care for my taipans. Since, after all, that was the topic of this thread, right? Oh wait, no, it's hybridizing. My post still stands. What happens in captivity is just that, in captivity. These snakes are not taken back to their home countries and released back out into the wild. Also, I've yet to see an Indian x burm be labeled as anything but an Indian x burm. Have you? Since you mentioned CITES that brings up another point some pro-hybridizers would use. Crossing the two, Indian and burm that is, would create an animal that can legally cross state boundaries. Ever notice how all of Prehistoric Pets' ads for their Indian pythons say "CA sales only." Some people outside of CA may want to work with Indians so badly they would be willing to settle for a cross. At least they'd be getting some percentage of the Indian. Unless they are fortunate enough to reside in a state where someone is already keeping and breeding pure Indians, they may be forced to go with the hybrid.
Oh, and about the "fish aquariums," since you obviously have worked with numerous, high strung, amazingly fast elapids, I guess I'll just take your advice. After all, Visions and Neodeshas are the supreme venomous snake enclosures, right? Sure, I'd love to work with something like an irritable taipan in a front-opening enclosure. That's much safer than having gravity give you leverage over the snake. Maybe I could even have them stacked so that when I open the enclosure I run the risk of having the snake fly out and give me a torso or even head/neck bite. Until Vision and all the rest can figure out a way to make their cages safer for super fast venomous snakes, I'll stick to my "fish aquariums" and home made enclosures any day. Enjoy the luxury of residing in an area where you have a state-wide AV bank. I guess it gives you the ability to sit there and preach at others while not having to worry about it yourself.
-Chance
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RE: Cross-breeding Eastern Diamonbacks and Timbers
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by kidcobra on June 13, 2004
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chance, it sounds like i made u mad. i didt mean to. u seem to fight with alotta people here. i was just giving u some advise that i think is good. we were talking about hybrids and u said something about starting a new project on crossing cobras. i do think u need to get ur set up more secure before starting new projects. i think vision and neodesha are the best for venomous. afterall they are escape proof. i have had kings and corns get out of my aquariums..not alot but it has happened. snakes will be snakes ahhahahhaha. i hear elapid snakes cruise around the enclosures alot. i bet the glass wall would be rreally bad for them bumping their noses too. if corn snakes can get out of a glass fish tank lid then a taipan can to. i dont know any zoos that use fish tanks for their venomous snakes and ive been to alot w/ zoo-teens. I also see their enclosure design opening at the front or backs too. but what do they know about safety and handling. ur chance. i think if you keep venomous snakes u run the risk of being bitten anytime. if you have front opening cages u run the risk of being bitten on your head or torso but u also run the risk of being bitten (and will probably) be bitten if anywhere on your hand or something. more importantly you might have gravity working in your favor, but i go to the audobon zoo quite a bit and they don't recommend using those top opening enclosure at all for venomous. u compromise ur safety when u put the lid on.....and ur fingers too. u could be bitten thru the screen. im not preaching at u. im one of the lucky ones cuz i live here. i wouldnt keep taipans cuz the av is 1000s of bucks and i couldn't afford it eiither. why don't u have antivenom for your snakes? what if u get bit using ur top opening cage by one? i read somewhere that 100% of untreated bites kill the keeper. u better have a source fast. where will u get it from? can u pay for the hospital bills? i dont think any hospitals except in miami stock av. that means u r gonna use someone elses. can u pay for it? this is something to think about and i dont think u r being very nice. but anyway i didn't mean to make this so long but thats why i got on this topic when it was about hybrids.
bakc to the hybrids. if someone wants to keep an indian python sooooo bad as u say they should buy one. i hear the USDI permits are like $25 a year. why cant someone get one....a permit. and as far as being "forced" to keep a hybrid cuz they want one soooo bad as u say, my challenge would be that first...nobody is forced to keep a hybrid. if u want to keep one sooooo bad then get a permit, don't waiste reproductive energy on a snake, and buy the real thing. its not that hard. a hybrid is exactly just that.....a hybrid. its not a indian anymore.
jason
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RE: Cross-breeding Eastern Diamonbacks and Timbers
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by Chance on June 14, 2004
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Jason,
This is going to be short because I don't have much time to type. If you can't understand why I would get on the defensive from your post, then go back and reread your post from a subjective perspective. Also, you notice I fight with a number of people on here? Go back and read who always starts those little spats. I probably shouldn't participate in most of them, but then again I'm not the kind of person to sit back and let my name be trashed.
Your opinions on hybrids are just that, your opinions. Likewise, mine are mine. Yes hybrid Indian/burms are hybrids, but sometimes hybrids make the best pets of all. Ever heard of the old attage "mutts make the best pet dogs." Of course snakes are not dogs, nor are they anywhere near domesticated, but sometimes hybrids, even in snakes, can portray the best attributes of both parents.
As for my desire to cross two Naja species, did I say I was going to do that, or that it would be a neat project? I believe I said the latter. My focus is on retics, not cobras. I don't have the time nor the space to deal with a project such as that, but thanks for your concern.
-Chance
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RE: Cross-breeding Eastern Diamonbacks and Timbers
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by elapidking81 on June 14, 2004
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Dont take offence but i think your a little young to but telling people how to keep there snake if chance or any body feels that keeping there snakes in aquariums is safer for them than i say good for them its what that person feels whats safe for them we as a group need to understand that one persons practices and ways of keeping should suit them not every one else , i have used several aquariums to house venomous snakes with a good lid there should be no worrys about escapes maybe as you get alittle older and keep venomous snake of your own you might understand more about what im talking about until then keep your comment to yourself and by your own admission you have never kept venomous snakes so you really dont know what your talking about anyway . i hope i didnt offend you thats not my intention keep learning and i hope you become a good safe competent keeper.
good luck,
shane kissinger
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RE: Cross-breeding Eastern Diamonbacks and Timbers
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by kidcobra on June 14, 2004
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shane, dont tell me what to do. this is america and a free country. i may not keep venomuos but i know what im talking about. i go to zoo teens and we go behind the scenes at zoos. i have been to 4 different zoos and none of them kept their hots in fish tanks or in top opening cages. i will say what i want, when i want, where i want. and i hope this doesnt offend u, shane too.
chance, i see u starting fights with people. if someone gives u advice u get defensive and start using sarcasim things. people don't trash ur name. u do a good job by yourself. i guess we wont agree on hybrids. i dont think that a hybrid snake would be a good pet. i like the animals and im not interested in messing them up longterm to keep it as a pet. this is selfish. how different is an indian burm cross from a regular burm. maybe a little lighter i guess. the end result is a bunch of molorus snakes that are ruined forever. i would like to breed indians one day, but its gonna be hard to. there are so many idiots who have crossed them out its tough to know who to buy from anymore. sure theywill tell u its a pure indian, but unless u can do scale counts, get from a breeder who is reputable in addition to observing the paperwork to trace the lineage.......chances are chance (LOL) u r gonna not have a pure indian. hybrids are bad.
also about ur spitting cobra project u said neither. u said u would "LIKE".... to me that sounds like something u are planning on doing. if u dont have much space how are u gonna do the retics. retics are the longest snakes in the world. lots of dwarfs still get 12ft too. ive seen them. do u keep them in aquariums too?
the only projects u need to get on is getting some better cages to house those taipans in. after doing that u should get antivenom. let us look together at a possible scenario.
what if....the impossible happens and a snake gets awy from you. your taipan could get away and bite someone else. how would u feel if this happened? u don't have the antivenom to save their life. to add insult to injury u are goign to take someone elses antivenom too. i read and correct me if im wrong...u said u can't afford to buy antivenom. u can afford taipans, retics, a trip to belize and to pay somebody back for antivenom u use...but u can't afford to buy it now. explain this to me. i think it would be easier if u gave ur snakes to somebody else.
i don't wanna sound like a know it all. im not inexperienced neither. i have catched corals, edbs, canes, coppers, and cottonmouths here in fl. i can use a hook. i just dont think i am ready yet, cuz i haven't worked w/ anybody else yet. everybody i talk to say you should get experience working with someone else first.
this is the last im gonna say on this
jason
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RE: Cross-breeding Eastern Diamonbacks and Timbers
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by taipan_nuts on June 14, 2004
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All I can say is, "WOW". Jason, you certainly have a good head on your shoulders. Chance and Shane could benefit from a few personal pointers from you.
Fellas the good books says, "a child shall lead them."
On a personal note I don't like hybrids at all. It would be nice to see the practice done away with entirely.
Dr. Edward J. Freyaldenhoven
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RE: Cross-breeding Eastern Diamonbacks and Timbers
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by elapidking81 on June 14, 2004
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kidcobra,
kid you are right this is a free country but it is not right to sit at a computer and down a person for doing what he wants and how he wants as long as he is not putting others at danger, and you have been to teen zoos hell that makes you qualified to tell some body whats good husbandry grow up if this is the way you want to start your reputation on this site than go for it as you said this is a free country i have always supported younge people on this site and will continue but slow down and learn from the people that know what there doing you sound like your getting offended im not trying to tell you what to do but trying to help you in the right direction many people do thing that i dont feel is right but it is not my place to say if there right or not.
shane kissinger
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RE: Cross-breeding Eastern Diamonbacks and Timbers
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by Chance on June 14, 2004
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Jason,
You really think, after going back through some old posts, that I start those fights? If that is what you really think, something is wrong. I only become defensive when I am attacked (much like in this case). I believe you are an intelligent person, especially for your age, so surely you can take a more objective look at those posts and see who starts the problems. If you really can't do that, then your reading comprehension abilities trail far behind your cognitive ones.
As for the hybrid issue, it's a moot one. Neither side is going to come to any civil conclusion, therefore it is useless to debate it. You dislike them, along with many other people. I don't mind them for the most part, as long as they are handled responsibly, and there are also many people that agree with me.
You should really try to stop reading into things. A person saying he/she would like to do something and actually doing it are two completely different things. I would like to have a colony of Boelen's pythons that breed successfully every year. Does that mean I'm actually going to have that? Of course not. I would also like for Australia to completely open up to export of proven cbb animals so that us keepers here in the states can gain legal access to some of the most 'coveted' herps on the planet. Does that mean it's going to happen? Of course not. My point is, don't read into things that aren't there. Same with the retic issue you decided to comment about. I said that along with the retics, I didn't have room for much of anything else. That is why I liquidated most of my collection. Of course I have room for the retics. And you know what, yes they stay in aquariums up until it's time to move them into their permanent enclosures (which for your info, are 6 to 8' long, 4' deep, and 2' high, does that sound reasonable enough for you?). Because of the retics, I have slimmed my numbers down to the bare essentials, aka PNG taipans, some native vens for educational presentations, and one or two other stragglers.
As far as the AV situation, I have explained my stance on this numerous times. I do not maintain my own AV supplies for many reasons. Of course it's a risk, but one I'm willing to take. How many keepers out there do you think maintain their own supply? I bet you saying 1 in 10 or even 1 in 20 is an exaggeration. Obviously it is better to keep your own supply if you can do so, but even you aren't going to do that, so I don't see the basis of your attempt to lecture me. You have a statewide AV bank willing to supply you with as much as you need. That's great, but it's still not perfect. If they don't get to you in time, you could die just like anyone else. I choose to keep these snakes, therefore I choose the responsibility that goes with them. Most likely I will keep my own supply in the future, and I guess in a way that's what I'm hoping the retics will help: funding. As for your assessment of my financial stability, again, stop reading into things. You have no idea how I went about or would go about doing any of the things you listed off, and I don't really need to go into it. Suffice it to say, yes if I used someone's supply of serum they would be paid back with interest. I see it only as fair.
Again I see this strange paradox developing that I addressed in an earlier thread. I have all these people willing to attack me unprovoked, for basically no good reason whatsoever save for the chance to belittle me in some way. Yet those same people seem to hang on every word I say in every forum I post. To me, I see these people as fans. Who else would remember all that about a person even if said months ago in some obscure post. Jason, do you make a point to read and remember everything I say? I'm flattered if so. You're certainly not alone, it seems.
Lastly, Shane is right. Every keeper is going to do things in his/her own way. To me, it makes sense to house something like a taipan in a top-opening enclosure to more easily control then. I've done the same thing with cobras and mambas and had no troubles. When they get a bit larger, they will be moved into a divided enclosure that employs both a small "feeding" window as well as a divided top-opening lid. To me, according to my experiences, this is the best way to work with elapids such as these. Other keepers will disagree with me, but in the end it's all a matter of personal taste. For now though, I'm going to keep trying things my way because it works.
-Chance
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Once Again!
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by Buzztail1 on June 14, 2004
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Alright ladies and gentlemen.
The next post that is not entirely about hybrid snakes in this thread will be removed.
It is ridiculous to have to censure adults on public behavior.
Do not attack other keepers in this forum. Period.
If you feel so strongly that you just can't keep it to yourself, speak to each other via email.
In other words ...
For you folks that don't like Chance and/or Shane, Fine. Noted. Don't bring it out in our forum!
For Chance and Shane, come on guys! You are defending your keeping practices against a kid whose herp keeping experience consists of how zoos keep them. Get real!
I am open to responses from anyone on this response at Buzztail1@hotmail.com but no more garbage will be tolerated here.
Karl H. Betz
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RE: Once Again!
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by Dadee on June 25, 2004
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Well said Karl. I believe that Hyrbridization can reap some rewards in the area of differing toxicity, similar in fact to what nature has done to the helleri, the toxins have been changing in captured species. Therefor, the only conclusion I could perceive as being rational, why not experiment? True, as Al posted earlier, "if the creator intended for these animals to mate there would be plenty to find in the wild", but that's not to say that there aren't any out there even if they are rare, the fact that they exist, negates the statement. Inbreeding is another matter, but isn't confined to just dogs, look at West Virginia...I mean all them disfigured people...ha ha ha. Just kidding. No offense to any "true" WV'ians in here.
Matt
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