Honesty counting, how do you know? - experts Forum at VenomousReptiles.org

Honesty counting, how do you know?	Reply
by Dadee on December 26, 2004	Mail this to a friend!
Here's the ultimate question for our community of Pro's and amateurs. I want to see your honest inside gut feelings on this question. How do you know when you're actually ready for those ultimate quickest species of elapids? For those of us who have been keeping native species or the least quickest of non-natives, when do you know that your level of proficiency is up to par for an advanced species, ie...Ophiophagus? I know myself and my skill set is advanced, however, I don't wish to be the one who goes to the extreme without my preparation being there. I've always considered the ultimate species to try and raise in captivity would be the King. The images in my mind that lead me there are the old photos of Bill Haast back in the 50's catching kings by the neck...a boyish grin from inside cracks open when I think of that. My gut also wrenches at the thought of putting my hands near that end of the snake, however, my interest is still piqued. Intrigued, Matt

RE: Honesty counting, how do you know?	Reply
Anonymous post on December 26, 2004	Mail this to a friend!
Lucky day! I posted this outline on another thread last night. It could be used to answer this question as well. Experience lends confidence to handling. If you can spend any time working with the species beforehand, you'll likely feel less anxiety about confronting one on your own. It makes no sense to purchase an animal only to be afraid of it. It also makes no sense to purchase an animal if you aren't adequately prepared to deal with it either. Anxiety, and intimidation have no place in the snakeroom. A NOVICE'S GUIDE APPROACH TO VENOMOUS HERPETOCULTURE LEVEL 1: (1 year)NONVENOMOUS-Various, general, basic species Leopard Geckos, Burmese Pythons, Lampropeltis, Pituophis, Elaphe, etc, etc, etc, or genera on level 2. LEVEL 2: (2 years) NONVENOMOUS-Various specialized and potentially aggressive non-venomous herps. Emphasis should be applied on restraint, probagative, and veterinary techniques with various "specialized" genera.Examples: Corallus, Eryx, Epicrates, Aggressive Python, Varanus, Morelia, Masticophis, Phelsuma, Uroplatus, Uromastyx, etc. The genera selected as examples are noted as "specialized" due to the fact that they are either aggressive, or moderate/high maintenance (w/reference to husbandry), or both. Learn about the natural history and husbandry needs of each before committing to keeping them. Purchasing pairs or breeding groups will likely prove rewarding and enlightening. Breed your herps. A combination of at least 3 years experience in the above described curricula (LEVEL 1 and 2) is prerequisite to proceeding to "Level 3". Level 3: (1 Year) Resume application of Level 1, and 2. Seek Mentorship training from an ethical, responsible, and obviously competent handler BEFORE keeping. After 6 months at this level, evaluate your capabilities and your competency with your mentor and perhaps one should begin to consider working with less toxic rear-fanged colubrids (H. gigas, B. dendrophila), and/or less "dangerous" native venomous. In North America, the Copperhead (A. contortrix ssp.) is recommended. Due to snakebite risk, novice hobbyists are advised to keep less toxic, native snakes, located in your area. DO NOT USE VENOMOIDS AS TRAINING METHODS! Learning emphasis level 3: Snakebite Protocol Venom Properties Venom, Antivenin, and the acquisition of Antivenin Legalities Venomous Herpetocultural Values Assessing Risks Animal Body Language Evaluation Restrictive Housing Restrictive Facility Tools Grappling Methods Bagging Transport Intro to Bi, or Tri-nomial nomenclature (if you haven't already) etc. Level 4: (6 months) Fusion of Level 3. Continued Mentorship required. Genera familiarization and Introduction to "real" venomous species. The hobbyist should be able to safely and comfortably handle the listed specimens below on his/her own. Safer "Remedial" Venomous Colubrids (H. gigas, B. dendrophila) Lower Toxic North American Venomous (A. contortrix) Level 5: (6 months) Fusion of level 4. Continued Mentorship required. Genera familiarization and introduction to more advanced, potentially lethal venomous reptiles, such as C. h. atricaudatus, C. adamanteus, and C. scutulatus. Encouraged lesson plans should suggest challenging, SUPERVISED tasks such as: Raising baby Pygmies Worming Assist Feeding Tease feeding Trimeresurus etc (if option is available) Hobbyists are also advised as they become more comfortable handling aggressive native venomous, to feel competent to entertain the idea of keeping easier, less dangerous exotic venomous. These could include: Trimeresurus sp. Tropidolaemus wagleri Bothriechis sp These representatives should be considered dangerous, and they are recommended because of their specialized husbandry requirements, and relative ease of handling. They should be handled w/ caution. (Hobbyists are best advised to spend a combination of NO LESS than 1 year between Level 4 and Level 5, BEFORE they move onto level 6.) Level 6: (1-3 Years) FOR INTERMEDIATE and ADVANCED KEEPERS - Mentorship required. Antivenin Acquisition process. Envenomated bite from listed genera could result in death or permanent disfigurement. Moderately-Highly Venomous! SEVERE CAUTION REQUIRED! Trimeresurus sp, Tropidolaemus, Echis, Atheris (NO AV), Aspidelaps sp.(NO AV), Bitis sp., Pseudocerastes, Bothriopsis, smaller Bothrops, Micrurus, Micruroides, Agkistrodon, Crotalus, Daboia, Macrovipera, Deiagkistrodon, Theoletornis, Dispholidus, Causus, Elapsoidea, and some Naja (exceptions are N. melanoleuca, N. haje, ssp., N. nivea, etc.)etc. Individuals interested in working with Naja are advised to do so with Non-Spitters first, and under supervised mentorship training. Level 7: ADVANCED ONLY! - Mentorship Required! Highly DANGEROUS! FREQUENT MAINTENANCE! SKILLFUL GRAPPLING TECHNIQUES REQUIRED! HIGHLY VENOMOUS! Lachesis sp Larger Bothrops Naja melanoleuca, Naja haje, Naja nivea Boulengerina (NO AV) Pseudohaje (NO AV) Dendroaspis sp. Pseudechis sp. Oxyuranus sp. Ophiophagus hannah Bungarus sp Slowly you pull the training wheels away.... These are just my opinions though. What do you guys think? Is this "structure" or what? I mean, how can you not like it? You can't argue with sound, moral, logic. And that's what we have here today, boys and girls! Sometimes I just sit in "awe" . Maybe I'll write a book, -The Phantom

RE: Honesty counting, how do you know?	Reply
by Phobos on December 26, 2004	Mail this to a friend!
Great Outline Prof. Phantom...LOL It certainly could be adopted by a AZA facility or larger reptile zoo for qualifying keepers. Seriously nice work! It would be a nice educational package to do on an installment basis at regularly occuring venomous shows. Many of the organizers are just interested in selling space, not offering a "Value added" package like lectures & training. Just Awesome!!....on the other hand..... To get something like that going in the private sector would be a Herculean task for sure. I'm still trying to get everyone to poke their head up and join the A/V bank which is certainly needed. I know there are more Venomous keepers in PA than I have on my list. Seems just a few take keeping Venomous seriously and the rest trivialize it by not even protecting their ass by getting the right enclosures, equipment, and Antivenom. Cheers! Al

RE: Honesty counting, how do you know?	Reply
Anonymous post on December 26, 2004	Mail this to a friend!
Al, I'm not sure if you saw the thread. For my views on ethics and the elite please find: http://www.venomousreptiles.org/forums/Experts/12310 The thread gets a little rough. Like many conversations do when points are debated on convictions. There are good points in there anyway. Application of "the Phantom Theories" here addresses many problems we face, and I dare say it's the best approach I've seen so far to this hobby in writing. Whaddya think? Harken my words and Ye shall add multitudes of years unto thy hot snake collection. -The Phantom

RE: Honesty counting, how do you know?	Reply
Anonymous post on December 26, 2004	Mail this to a friend!
Also forgot Al....just an idea. I would push for exposure. Advertise your website on this site, kingsnake.com, and faunaclassifieds.com-the ones with the most exposure, and get the word out. The only one that will charge you is kingsnake.com-the site w/ the most exposure. Hobbyists need to see where to cover themselves for snakebite, and I think the classifieds, "selling" venomous snakes is a good place to start with. Hamburg would be a good place to set up (if you haven't done so already). Right on, man! -The Phantom

RE: Honesty counting, how do you know?	Reply
by captiveherps on December 26, 2004	Mail this to a friend!
I wouldn't put burmese on the novice list, sure they are easy to look after, but when they hit 6-8 feet people get scared and want rid of them. I've lost count of the number of free 6-8 ft boas and pythons I've been given over the years.

RE: Honesty counting, how do you know?	Reply
by Phobos on December 26, 2004	Mail this to a friend!
Hi Phantom: A little rough...lol...I thought it was a major conflagration. I agree that there were good point made there, to bad we can't distill them and put them to use. WE are ALL time limited, thats why I was a bit disgusted at the waste of time involved hashing out all the different parts of the thread. I do have a website "ready to go" but I'm waiting for some of the legal ends to be tidyed up so to speak. I've attended the past two Hamburg shows with Matt Harris and talked to everyone in the "Hot zone" about it, maybe 50 people. I have about 5 questioneers back from those shows, depite sending out email to everyone who gave it to me. As I've seen written else where in this and the Kingsnake forum: Complacency Kills... and the hobby seems not to be immune.

RE: Honesty counting, how do you know?	Reply
Anonymous post on December 26, 2004	Mail this to a friend!
I think its the pipe dream of an idealist

RE: Honesty counting, how do you know?	Reply
by ALA_herp31 on December 27, 2004	Mail this to a friend!
When I worked at East Limestone Zoo, I had more than 50 Burms and Retics brought to me because the owners said they could not handle the size of the Snake. I would ask them why they bout the Snake in the first place, and the anser was always this (the person at the pet shop said the Snake would not get that big). This just show how fare some pet shop owners will go to sale such large Snake to anyone, Even if the person knows nothing about the animal. I also remember about 10 cases that ppl brought me venomous Snakes that they did not know how to care for. This one guy brought me a (Naja haje) that he had bout from some reptile show, the guy he bout it from told him that he had milked all the venom from the Snake, so the Snake could not hurt him and that the venom would never come back. Now we all know this is a lie, even if you milk a Snake it still produces more venom. This just show how uneducated ppl can get the trip by dealers...... Be safe ya�ll, happy herping Wally

RE: Honesty counting, how do you know?	Reply
by Dadee on December 28, 2004	Mail this to a friend!
To the Phantom and Co.: Advancing to a quicker species is not something I would take lightly, nor do I advocate jumping in with both feet. I don't think the punctuation of fear has the correctness to it. I believe what I was asking was how do you know when you're ready...preparation being key. Fear is a cumbersome word and my identification of fear is jumping on an airplane and getting 35,000 feet up and feeling the aircraft plunge 5,000 feet. To glue this same feeling towards my charges is not something I can do. Respect for their power and quick movements (obviously quicker than mine) IS what I'm willing to call it. I can say, I know when to call in the help from my big "guns"...the pros of the biz, who have amongst them hundreds of years experience (this forum), including the Phantom I imagine. I choose my subjects carefully and do what I can to prepare for the introduction. I CAN say that intimidation does play well for those who would choose not to get bit. If one feels intimidated they are alert, wary. Tell me that someone who is holding a gun in your close proximity isn't intimidating (keeping you alert) and I'll tell you that I'm glad I'm wearing my boots today. Respect and intimidation do play major roles in my handling. The loud hiss from my gabby's tells me that I'm in their area and they want me to know that. On a side note, grappling? I thought that was a wrestling move. If tailing or pinning one's head down is what you're referencing, I'll abstain. I'll be contented with my hots as is (no grappling required). I would like to think that my handling techniques are very good, in that I have not had to put my hands on any of my snakes. With one exception, a baby that was tubed and his tail was held at the end so he couldn't climb out the other end of the tube. I hope everyone doesn't take this a mocking or sarcasm, since I only wanted to point out that the wording may be wrong slightly. I would like to thank all of the forum members for their input on many occasions without being obtuse. I will take this "Profile" with me as I carry on, to the next level in my tiny steps (years before moving on). I hope everyone will have a great New Year and give back to the forum where you too get sound advice. Nods, Matt

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