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Possible Snake Bite Treatment ?
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by Cro on April 3, 2005
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Snake Venom in a test tube can be neutralized by many different compounds, such as pottasium permagnate, bleach, enzymes, and hydrogen peroxide. I know that some MD's use hydrogen peroxide as an IV therepy, to oxidize pathogens. Hydrogen peroxide ( H2O2 ) breaks down to form oxigen and water. I wonder if something like hydrogen peroxide, or other compounds, could be injected directly into the site of a snake bite before the venom spread, and would neutralize the venom?
I also wonder if something that would break down snake venom could be combined with DMSO ( Dimethyl Sulfoxide ), which is a solvent that is used as a carrier in trans-dermal medication patches, to carry the compound into the bite area to break down the venom ?
This is something I have been wondering about for many years. I have asked a couple of MD's about this, and they said it might be possible. Since there are so many medical, venom lab, and research folk at this web site, it would be great to hear your ideas on this topic. Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Possible Snake Bite Treatment ?
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by Rabies on April 4, 2005
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There has been exstensive research in "antidotes" to neutralise venom and to date Antivenom is the first drug of choice, if required. For example potassium permanganate (Condy's Crystals) was used extensively over the past century (estimate) and was shown to destroy venom in a test tube. The result of introducing the potassium into the bitten area was necrosis (tissue death)and large, slowly healing ulcers. You would need something that would specifcally target the enzymes, peptides etc of snake venom, leaving the enzymes, peptides etc found in the human body naturaly, intact.
John
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RE: Possible Snake Bite Treatment ?
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by Cro on April 4, 2005
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John: That is why I am wondering about Hydrogen Peroxide. If it can be used in IV treatments, what would it do if injected IM or SC ? I agree that Antivenom is the first drug of choice, but am thinking of something that could be used as a "First Aid" measure immediatly following a bite, and on the way to medical facilities. If it could neutralized even some of the venom, while it was concentrated in the bite area, it might be of use. In an Elapid bite, with the venom concentrated by a constriction bandage, this might work even better? Say Hydrogen Peroxide, or another compound that would work against the venom, but not against the patient, was put into something like the Epi Pen used by people sensitive to bee stings, and kept in a first aid kit? Would it be of use during the hours it could take before Antivenom is made available? JohnZ
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RE: Possible Snake Bite Treatment ?
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by BGF on April 4, 2005
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As Rabies pointed out, if something can destroy the snake venom proteins, then it is also going to destory normal body proteins. This is because all snake venom proteins are simply normal body proteins that have been recruited for use in the venom, followed by extensive duplication and diversification (http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/2005_BGF_Genome_2_Venome.pdf). The treatment would then have to selectively target the snake venom proteins to the exclusion of the body proteins. Hmm.. that sounds remarkably like an antivenom! ;-)
Cheers
Bryan
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RE: Possible Snake Bite Treatment ?
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by Cro on April 4, 2005
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Bryan: Thanks for the reply. I tend to agree with your statement "if something can destroy the snake venom proteins, then it is also going to destory normal body proteins", but still wonder if that is always the case?
When we use antivenom, we are injecting something that can destroy snake venom proteins, but what if the doctor used antivenom on a snake bite where no venom was injected? Would the antivenom, as a foreign horse or sheep protein, be just as toxic as is a snakebite? In other words, are venom and antivenom fully self cancelling?
With all the compounds in the world, I find it hard to believe that there might not be something that could neutralize snake venoms and still not harm human tissues. Many native peoples have plant based snake bite cures. How many of these have been clinically tested?
What about the immunity that king snakes and other snakes have to snake venoms? They obviously have compounds in their bodys that have co-evolved to make them resistant to snake bite, but those immunitys are not anti-body based as in a antivenom, are they?
I found a reference where a company in Victoria was testing MSM (related to DMSO) for Australian spider bites. They seem to think that the Sulfa compounds could neutralize spider venoms without harming the bitten person. I was not able to find the results of their study, though.
And to open another can of worms.... What ever happened to using Electrical Shock to neutralize venoms? There were many articles on this in years past. Did anyone ever do clinical studies to see if it actually worked?
JohnZ
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RE: Possible Snake Bite Treatment ?
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by Rabies on April 4, 2005
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JohnZ
As you mentioned Antivenom(AV) is a collection of anti bodies, so if a Dr was to administer AV where no envenomation has occured unless the patient is hypersensitive then the AV would be discarded via normal bodily route.
Whether natives have plant like cures would be questionable, I believe the success rate that the natives beleive in is just the ratio of dry and mild bites, where the victim appears to recover from the "voodoo" Dr's hands.
With electrical shock treatment which has been clinicaly studied, the amount of voltage required to destroy venom enzymes, protiens etc would also be damaging enzymes, protiens of the human body.
As for snake immunity, I believe Dr Zulkas (excuse spelling) has done research on African spitters, and they have a glucose based compound that blocks the receptor site from the effects of their venom. I hope this has helped a little
John
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RE: Possible Snake Bite Treatment ?
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by Cro on April 4, 2005
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John: That is a good point about dry bites accounting for possible "cures" by native shaman and healers. That could result in an 50% cure rate.
I find it interesting that Dr. Zulkas found glucose compounds that block receptor sites from the efects of venom. Does this mean that venom has to have a receptor cite to do damage? If that is the case, then there is the possibility of duplicating the glucose compound could produce a bite treatment? It could also mean that natural plant compounds used by healers in some cases contain glucose compounds that work the same way?
Do you have any links to the Electrical Current studys? Obviously, the current is going to do damage if it is large enough to destroy venom, but is it going to do more damage than then the venom? Some old refrences have MD's using stun guns and tasers in treatment. These treatments did not kill the patient, and seem to have cured the bite? But, like you said, it could have been a mild or dry bite.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Possible Snake Bite Treatment ?
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by BGF on April 4, 2005
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The researcher you mentioned is Dr. Zolton Takacs. The way that the sugar chain being added to the postsynaptic nicotinic acetylcholine receptor works is that it sterically interferes with the ability of three finger neurotoxins from binding. Basically it just puts a bumper in the way so that the toxin can't bind to the site on the receptor. It is not binding to the neurotoxin at all so there is no use in therapeutics. The regular neurotransmitter (acetylcholine) is not interefered with because it is a much smaller molecule so can get to the binding site.
Here is the portion of his website with a good explanation
http://www.zoltantakacs.com/zt/sc/naja.shtml
There are several studies regarding the uselessness of stun guns, other than for amusement purposes of watching rednecks zap each other! ;-D My personal favorite was when a couple guys didn't appreciate the fine difference between car battery/stun gun DC current and the AC/DC of household and used a cutoff powercord in a house socket to truly fry one of their mates! A bit of natural selection at work.
email one of the authors if you want a copy: welchb@swosu.edu
Ben Welch E, Gales BJ.
Use of stun guns for venomous bites and stings: a review.
Wilderness Environ Med. 2001 Summer;12(2):111-7.
During the past 2 decades, articles suggesting that stun guns be utilized to treat venomous bites and stings have appeared in both the lay and medical press. Although never widely considered to be standard therapy for venomous bites and stings, stun guns are still considered to be a treatment option by some medical practitioners and outdoor enthusiasts. A Medline search was performed using these terms: venomous bites, venomous stings, snake bites, spider bites, electrical, stun gun, high voltage electricity, low amperage electricity, direct current, and shock therapy. Articles selected included laboratory-based isolated venom studies, animal studies, and case reports involving humans in which a stun gun or some other source of high voltage, low amperage direct current electric shocks were used to treat actual or simulated venomous bites or stings. We concluded that the use of stun guns or other sources of high voltage, low amperage direct current electric shocks to treat venomous bites and stings is not supported by the literature.
Cheers
Bryan
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RE: Possible Snake Bite Treatment ?
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by Cro on April 4, 2005
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Bryan: Thanks for the link to the Dr. Zolton Takacs research site. Very interesting on how the acetylcholine receptor works. Best Regards JohnZ
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