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RE: Pre baby having shed ????
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by Anti-VenomMan on February 27, 2006
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Yes atleast one speices (green tree pythons) do have a pre-lay shed. This was documented by Trooper Walsh and Greg Maxwell (and more) and commonly refered to beetween Chondro keepers.
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RE: Pre baby having shed ????
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by aherbst on February 27, 2006
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Thank you all for the help.
I will let you know how it all pans out.
See its like this. I bought her about 2 years ago and had no intentions of breeding her. The man I got her from said she was a proven breeder and was with a male before I got her. I don't normally believe everything people tell me so I didn't think about it again. Then around Dec., 2005 I noticed she was looking very fat. I checked her wait and notices an increase of about 75 grams from the last time I had her to the vet. That was July of 2005. She is full grown so I didn't figure she would shoot up be that much. I reviewed her feeding logs and talked with my vet who is also a venomous keeper. He said based on the amount of food consumed and the weight gain she had to be gravid. I just checked her weight yesterday and she was 470 grams. Ten days ago she was 454 grams and has only ate one small 7 gram hopper. Pretty hard to gain 16 grams on that meal. So now I guess I will just wait and see. She can't go too much longer, she looks like a balloon snake now and if you stuck her with a pen she'd pop.
Again Thanks to All
Augie
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RE: Pre baby having shed ????
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by Cro on February 27, 2006
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Charles is correct in stating that Green tree pythons do seem to shed two to three weeks prior to laying eggs, as observed by Walsh and Maxwell.
Most other snakes do not seem to do this.
It would be interesting to hear from other python keepers who have kept extensive records and who have bred pythons many times, and see if they have noticed this behavior, and can support it with accurate data.
JohnZ
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RE: Pre baby having shed ????
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by aherbst on February 27, 2006
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I breed Western Hognose Snakes and Corn snakes they both go through a pre-laying shed. After the shed they lay their eggs within 10 days.
Augie
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RE: Pre baby having shed ????
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by petra on February 27, 2006
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Bullsnakes also go through a pre-laying shed 10 days before they lay eggs.
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RE: Pre baby having shed ????
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by keyz on February 28, 2006
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I have also observerd this in Corn snakes, But I have only bred a couple of times and was not sure if I had seen it often enough to comment.
keyz
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RE: Pre baby having shed ????
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by Cro on February 28, 2006
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If snakes go through a pre-laying shed, or not, is something that will require people keeping excellent records on a large number of snakes in captivity, over a number of years.
This is something that would be best accomplished by a zoo or commercial breeder.
Apparently, the Chondro Python folks have observed this behavior with some regularity, but I still have to agree with Alex that shedding and the production of young are usually not related in most types of snakes.
In a female snake that is carrying young or eggs, hydration and nutritional resources are very critical. She must use some of the water she drinks and food she eats to supply the developing eggs and young as they get larger. Often she will stop eating, which means that the nutrition for the young is coming directly from the break-down of her body tissues.
It would not make much sense to also shed her skin at this time, as this would further stress her body and water resources to produce the fluids needed to seperate the old skin from the new, and the nutrients needed to develope the new skin. This would take away resources needed by the developing young.
Also, if a female snake is carrying young, it would seem a very bad time for her to go opaque prior to shedding. This opaque state would make her (and thus her offspring) much more prone to predation. If she can not see well, she is less likely to excape a predator. Perhaps this does not apply to a Chondro Python way up in a jungle canopy, but it shure would apply to most snakes.
I have seen hundreds of snakes which have given birth or layed eggs, including many, many of the snakes mentioned, such as bull snakes, corn snakes, and hog-nosed snakes, and I have kept very good records for over 40 years. From my observations, I do not believe that most snakes have a pre-laying shed. Perhaps some snakes do this, but I think it is a tiny minority.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Pre baby having shed ????
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by stopgetinpopped on March 6, 2006
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Sometimes the bashing on here really gets under my skin. I wonder if the bashers would appreciate it...
CRO-John-
Yes, 'Most' or better yet (all properly observed and recorded) snakes go through a very predictable prelay/birth shed. It varies from species to species. However, it is observed in the majority of snakes and many/most lizards. "Most" snake keepers do not keep accurate enough records to show any similarities let alone breed the same species regularly enough to understand one pile of fly ridden crap about their animals. Gestation of 4-6 months? What is the criteria for the time lapse? Most often, lack of observance of conception! With Green Tree Pythons, you have a large group of people keeping very accurate records of their animals and comparing it to others very accurate records. Thus culminating with a very reliable "cookbook" how-to guide to chondropython reproduction.... There is a little variance to it as captive husbandry practices are never as good as natures recipe.
So Back off, the original poster is correct, the problem is, there is no cookbook for pygmies...it could be 10 before the shed or it could be 5-6 weeks before they deposit young. It is a routine behaviour for many obvious reasons!
Sheesh... so many frickin no it alls!!!!!
Can you tell you caught me on a bad day? Lay off people...
Terry Phillip
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RE: Pre baby having shed ????
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by Cro on March 7, 2006
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Lets see. We caught Terry on a bad day, so he comes to the computer and Bashes folks for stating an observation, says that folks who disagree with him are Bashing, and he tells folks to Lay Off, and he calls folks Frickin No It All`s.
Well, I sure hope it made you feel better Terry.
I bet you have a lot of bad days living in such a depressing, cold, and nasty State as S.D. Especially during the winter. All those rain and snow storms, and that cold, cold Cananian wind always blowing. No wonder the folks up ther catch Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD).
As far as Bashing, I do not think my comments to Augie were Bashing. I did apologise to him if my comments came on a little too strong. But Augie, if you think I was trying to Bash you with my comments, I apologise for that. That was not my intent. I stated my opinion based on my observations and record keeping of there not being pre-birth shed in Pygmys.
It is interesting that Terry says ``all properly observed and recorded snakes go through a very predictable prelay/birth shed.`` However, he still has not supplied any references supporting this.
Charles showed us that the Green Tree Python folks have kept carefull records, and documented this behavior. And I suggested that more observations were needed by commercial breeders and zoos to try to document this behavior in other snakes, and that I have not yet seen evidence of this being an allways behavior in all snakes.
You know, I like learning new things. I am certanly not a ``Know It All`` as you suggested. I am more than willing to accept that most all snakes go through a prelay/birth shed once you show me enough evidence. I am not willing to accept your offhand comments that this is ``routine behavior``until I see it observed and documented by other carefull observers.
I made an effort to find out if others had observed this behavior, and checked books like Rattlesnakes by Laurence Klauber, Venomous Reptiles of the Western Hemisphere by Jonathan Campbell and William Lamar, Reproductive Cycles in Lizards and Snakes by Henry Fitch, Reproductive Biology and Diseases of Captive Reptiles by James Murphy and Joseph Collins, Biology of the Pit Vipers by Jonathan Campbell, Edmund Brodie, and Harry Greene, The Temperature and Water Relations of Reptiles by J.L. Cloudsley-Thompson, and about 20 other books. The only reference I could find in all these thousands of pages of reference was in Susan Barnard`s book Reptile Keepers Handbood, where she states ``Pregnant females MAY shed prior to delivery of their eggs or young.``
It is surprising to me that all of these people mentioned never observed this prelay/birth shed. Of course, I guess they all could be guilty of keeping fly ridden crappy records of all the tens of thousands of snakes that they have worked with.
Apparently, Terry feels he is the only person in the world who can keep good records.
I went back and checked my records again, and found in breeding Pygmy Rattlesnakes 5 times, only two times that I would consider a possible pre-birth shed. One did indeed shed 12 days before birth, and one shed 54 days before birth, which may or may not be considered a pre-birth shed. In the other three births, the time from shedding was between 9 and 11 months. I do not consider those three to be pre-birth sheds, but normal seasonal sheds.
So Terry, go play some Tic-Tac-Toe with Bird Brain, and dig up some scientific evidence to support your theory. Or better yet, take your extensive records and publish the pre-shed/pre-birth data in Herp Review, or Nature. I am sure it would be a benefit to all Herpetologists.
Best Regards JohnZ
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