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11 fatalities in one attack?!?
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by toddg on March 9, 2006
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I was surfing the web, looking up information on one of the most tired subjects on this site (LD-50's and average venom yields) when I came across this statement:
Dendroaspis polylepis (Black Mamba) has a LD50 (subcutaneous) of 0.32 mg/kg and a yield of 50.0 - 120.0 mg of venom. This means that it takes 0.32mg of venom to kill 500 grams, of mice (remember it only kills half of those it is administered to). We use a standard 20g mouse, thus there are 50 mice to a kilogram or 25 mice to 500 grams. 1 mg of venom is enough to kill 78.125 mice. That is 1 divided by 0.32 and the result multiplied by 25. The snake yields up to 120 mg of venom so we multiply our result by 120 and arrive at a figure of 9375 mice. Or, by extrapolation, 187.5 kg of human(s). We do know from reliable records that this snake has killed 11 adult humans in a single attack. Thus the mouse LD50 obviously does not tell the whole story! It is however a baseline comparison that has some merits.
Of particular interest is the last section referring to “killed 11 adult humans in a single attack”
My question to you is; does anybody have knowledge of such an attack? Or is this one of those Black Mamba “wives tales” that get blown out of proportion? Certainly if such a feat were possible, Denro’s p. would be on everybody’s short list but yet… I have a hard time believing this story… still, if it were true, I believe that would bring about an end to the “What’s the Most Dangerous Snake in the World” debate.
toddg
P.S. The web site in question is: http://www.seanthomas.net/oldsite/ld50tot.html
P.P.S. The rest of the web site seems to "parrot" the work of BGF.
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RE: 11 fatalities in one attack?!?
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by LongDucDong on March 9, 2006
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The only logical guess I can offer is that they MEANT to say it yields enough venom to potentially kill 11 adults with a single bite?? Your guess is as good as mine! haha But that still doesnt sound right... this is not a O. hannah were talking about here...
I fail to see how this particular mamba could have killed 11 people in one attack. Lets review the facts: firstly, it seems impossible that ALL died from the bite. That just doesnt make sense. Secondly, youd figure that after the first person got bit, why woudl the other 10 continue in their attack? And by then, Im sure one of them would have gotten to the snake. I dont know the basis of this fight, I would assume they were trying to kill it??? If so, if this mamba picked off all 11 of these supposed people, they must have been 105 yrs old or something... or blind perhaps? I just dont see how this is even possible...
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RE: 11 fatalities in one attack?!?
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by toddg on March 9, 2006
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I’m assuming the “alleged” attack happened at night while those inside the (I’m guessing) “hut” were ”asleep”. Perhaps someone rolled on to the poor “critter” and he went on a biting rampage. Or perhaps the culprit had Internet access, logged on to venomousreptiles.org, and simply didn’t appreciate Tiapans being mentioned in the same breathe as him/herself and performed thier own LD-50 test... on humans!
I’m just spiffballing here, (and yes, I did steal that line from Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men) but what I’m looking for is any information on this particular attack. Is it, as the web site suggests, a “reliably recorded account”? Is it the stuff of legend? Or, did somebody just “make it up” in order to get more hits on their website?
toddg
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RE: 11 fatalities in one attack?!?
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by tj on March 9, 2006
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As far as it being possible, I'd say yes, it doesn't have to be a king cobra with that type of potent venom.
As far as it being a wives tale, I'd say definitely. However, Hollywood Steve Irwin did say on one of his shows, after catching a polylepis in a hut, that "this snake would have probably killed 100 people". So who knows, I don't think he has ever been wrong about anything ....haha. I do know that d. polylepis has the fastest recorded kill out of any venomous, which was 9 minutes or so, it was an AV bite. Guinness has that on record.
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RE: 11 fatalities in one attack?!?
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by 23bms on March 9, 2006
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I have a biography of C J P Ionides that opens with an incident in which a "green mamba" (augusticeps ?) dropped into a native hut and, in the ensuing ruckus, killed, if I remember correctly, eight people. Ionides subsequently managed to capture the snake. The incident allegedly occurred during the biographer's extended visit with him.
The book was "Snake Man: The story of C.J.P. Ionides," by Alan Wykes and was published in 1961. Unfortunately, the volume is at home and I am not. When I get back, I'll check the details.
The point of all this is that, assuming the reporting of the incident was factual, a tally of eleven by a polylepis in some other incident is at least theoretically plausible. It is also possible that the incident Wykes related, having been published and widely distributed, could be the long lost kernel of fact underlying an embellished tale of eleven killed by the more notorious black mamba.
Regardless, it's amusing to speculate.
jrb
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RE: 11 fatalities in one attack?!?
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by LarryDFishel on March 9, 2006
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>Certainly if such a feat were possible, Denro’s p. would be on everybody’s short list but yet…
Um... Who's short list isn't it on? It's on mine and every other I've seen.
>still, if it were true, I believe that would bring about an end to the “What’s the Most Dangerous Snake in the World” debate.
How so? It's pretty well accepted that a taipan could theoretically kill somewhere areound 50-60 people in a sitting if they all lined up and took their bites politely... It probably would be the record for the most people actually killed on the same day by the same snake (if it's true).
>But that still doesnt sound right... this is not a O. hannah were talking about here...
Well, not precisely, but it's a snake with 1/5 the yield of 5 times as potent a venom. I'd say that makes it pretty close to the same (assuming that's what you meant).
>I fail to see how this particular mamba could have killed 11 people in one attack. Lets review the facts: firstly, it seems impossible that ALL died from the bite.
Depends on how you mean that. I personally think it's unlikely that 11 people in a country where people are terrified of snakes would ALL manage to get bit. However, I have no problem believing that IF they got bit they would all die. The only book I've read with real statistics shows black mamba bites to be 100% fatal even with hospital treatment up to a few decades ago (later than the era of this story). The sample size was only in the neighborhood of 7-8 bites though.
The basis for this recurring story is a book by a British explorer (C.J.P. Ionides) who is himself considered quite credible. But...he obviously wasn't there when it happened, nor was anyone else who lived if I understand correctly. I think it's probably reasonable to take his word that he was shown 11 bodies somewhere that showed signs of snakebite, but I can't see how he can be sure how they died.
Suicide or murder sound a lot more likely to me...
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An addenda to my previous post
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by 23bms on March 9, 2006
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toddg mentions, "I’m assuming the “alleged” attack happened at night while those inside the (I’m guessing) “hut” were ”asleep”. Perhaps someone rolled on to the poor “critter” and he went on a biting rampage."
The incident related in Wykes book is almost identical. Allegedly, it occurred in a "hut" full of sleeping people . The snake dropped in, presumably chasing some prey, a half asleep person thrashed at it and chaos ensued. My experience with augusticeps is that they are hopelessly diurnal (mine get up with the chickens, but NEVER before) suggesting that the "night" element is somewhat implausible. However, if I remember Wykes' story correctly, the inhabitants of the hut were supposedly sleeping off the previous night's festivities and were thus not inclined to get up early which makes a dawn or early morning incident possible. This is NOT entirely inconsistent with my experience with the species.
The more I examine it, the more I am inclined to think that the alleged incident involving a "black" is, in fact, an embellishment of the green mamba incident that Wykes related.
jrb
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Larry's comment
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by 23bms on March 9, 2006
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Check the book if you can find it. (See my first post on the subject.) If you can't find it, drop me an email. I'll send you the relevant passages.
jrb
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RE: 11 fatalities in one attack?!?
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by toddg on March 9, 2006
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In theory? In theory a killer whale is the most dangerous fish (and yea, I know it's not a fish)in the sea but fortunately, they don’t eat people. I'm not interested in the most "dangerous snake in the world” debate and certainly didn’t wish to offend any Tiapan fans. I also did not wish to evoke the “is it possible” camp although, I appreciate the input.
I’m simply trying to ascertain whether this actually happened or is just another “Black Mamba” fabrication.. As to “how” it would end such a debate? I’m unaware of any “multiple homicides” being attributed to ANY other snake. That’s how. But then again that’s just my twisted logic.
toddg
P.S. I took the liberty of e-mailing the web site for a news account or whatever they have, of the story.
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RE: 11 fatalities in one attack?!?
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by keyz on March 9, 2006
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I have heard a similar story and always considerd it an old wives tale, but the arguments stated have nearly convinced me that SOMETHING involving a (mamba)Green or Black. And as no one seems to be able to "get of the fence",
I will! Its definitely possible but I cant prove it.
hope that is simple enough. If A snake such as a Black Mamba DID get into a crowded hut then as we all know it is more than capable of killing everyone in it!
Perhars we will never hear the real story, but thats what Tales are for, to scare the cr** out of people who dont understand snakes as we do!
Kieron.
p.s. I also heard in the story I was told that a sleeping baby was also bitten and killed, Just a bit I rememberd.
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