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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by tj on March 12, 2006
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Hey Karl, I usually do apologize to you and Chris when I'm being an a$$ and when my somewhat vulgar language comes out. I hope you don't think I was targeting my rants towards you.
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by Chance on March 12, 2006
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I feel I should chime in here at least once because I've both been on the receiving end of these kinds of rants (and I'm not saying *some* weren't warranted!) and I've personally known this guy for at least a couple years now. He has safely (i.e., without an envenomation) maintained several large, dangerous elapids, not to mention numerous Crotalids, for a number of years. I have no doubt he can fairly safely keep Oxyuranus, especially when it's as mild-mannered as this one has been described as being.
I tend to take a somewhat pragmatic approach at keeping snakes, be they venomous or gigantic constrictors. That is: if you don't let it, the snake can't harm you. Snakes can't do anything metaphysically; they are bound by the same physical constraints we and anything else on the planet are. Sure some of them can strike really fast, some of them can climb really fast, some get rather large, and some are very strong. But, if you never put yourself into a position to allow the pointy end to contact your flesh, you will never be bitten. Yeah that's kind of a simplistic way of putting it, but you really can't argue with it. So do I think a 19 year old should be able to keep Oxyuranus? Yes and no. Yes if he/she has a sensical approach at keeping said animal, has protocols in place in case of a bite, either has AV on hand or knows without a shadow of a doubt where the very nearest store is kept, and has a desire resulting from a fascination and love for the animal rather than anything related to ego or bravado. I believe the latter, more than any other factor, is the main part of the decline in keeping priviledges across the country. My answer to the prior question would of course be no if any of the above is not met. Anyway, there are my thoughts on the situation.
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by tj on March 12, 2006
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I do recall back when you were on the receiving end. You have to understand my concerns.When someone says they have been keeping hots since they were 10, and another source says he has been keeping elapids and what not for a few years,it arouses some questions. Mainly, how did he get those snakes and at what point are dealers and "mentors" going to smarten up? You can take a 17 year old that has been trained by Bill Haast for all his life handling venomous snakes and can be the best handler in the world at that age. But what's going to happen when that 17 year old gets bit? What's going to happen when one of the kids in here gets bitten by someone elses snake? Who is going to pay for his hospital bills. Who is going to be liable for these mistakes? The dealers? Mentors? We are. I know he is an adult, but at some point he has acquired snakes when he was a minor. And that's the part that scares me.
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by timberrattlesnake89 on March 12, 2006
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The one thing that I think is somewhat funny about all this, is that so many of the people are the website were around 16 or 17 when they started keeping venomous snakes. I feel that age doesn't mean anything. I have met people that are in their 20s that free handle and all sorts of very stupid things. I keep venomous snakes, and yes I AM 16. But I am very responsible with my snakes. I don't go around holding the snakes everyday. I might take them out once a week to clean their cages. I know several people that just go a pick up there snakes like nothing a free-handle them. Sure some teenagers are very irresponsible, I see them on the road all the time. They are the ones who are cutting people off and speeding. What point I make is that I have met a lot more adults that act very irresponsible around venomous snakes than teenagers. Like I have seen a lot of adults drunk and playing with venomous snakes.
Phillip
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by Rob_Carmichael on March 12, 2006
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As a curator of a reptile museum that has many hots, AND, as a curator who mentors MANY teenagers who work/volunteer for me, I truly don't feel that they have any business keeping venomous snakes; not because they don't have the ability but strictly because of where they are at in their life stage and developmental stage. It is a proven fact that until males, for example, reach 21 years of age (and sometimes older) that their brains are not fully developed and make many decisions based on emotions and irrationability...that's scientifically proven. That's a bad mix when keeping venomous herps. Second, most if not all teenagers live at home exposing their hobby to the rest of the family who may not share that passion and may have some anxiety that is not fully aware to you. Third, how many teenagers can you honestly tell me that can afford their own antivenin supply (much less acquire it legally)? How many of these teenagers are planning on going to college....where will the snakes go then? There are just far too many variables that point towards the notion that teenagers/minors should NOT keep venomous snakes/herps. I didn't start working with hots until I was almost 20 and I felt that I was one of the most responsible keepers when I was a young boy; in fact, I can probably count on one or two hands how many times I have been bitten in my life. BUT, I knew that I wasn't at a stage of my life where it would be responsible to keep venomous. Most teenagers fail to realize this but that's a part of being a teenager; we have all been there.
My advice is to wait until you finish college, if that's what you want to do, get a full time job, your own HOUSE (folks in apartments shouldn't own venomous) with the resources to care for the animal properly. Until that happens, young folks should not even consider owning a venomous snake.
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by timberrattlesnake89 on March 12, 2006
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Hello Rob,
To Respond to the questions you have asked. First I understand all the risk and dangers. Second my mother is fully aware of what we keep in our basement and is fine with it. She is always their in the room and my back up if things go wrong and she knows how to use the equipment. Third I do not stock my own anti-venin because I only keep venomous snakes native to Georgia where my local hospital has a stock of crofab. My mothers work has full insurance on the both of us. I had a bad knee injury a long time ago which ended up costing over $30,000 and we only had to less than $1,000 of it. I never get out my snakes for show. They are all in secure cages with locks and in a seperate room from the other snakes. I plan to go to the university near me and live with my mom until my first four years are up then plan to move. She is fully able to take care of my snakes when I am not around. She sometimes with give all my snakes water if I am not around to do so. I also never pin my snakes heads unless medical reasons. I have never had the need yet to pin the snakes head. If anything I will tube them first. I never ever work with my venomous snakes if I am tired, upset, or just not in the mood. I will wait another day when I feel I am up to work with these potentally dangerous animals. I have understand all the risk with them, and take every procaution. I have all the snake cages marked with the species and warning signs of which are dangerous. I have special snake proof containers that I will put them in when during routine maintinace.
Phillip
www.georgiaherp.com
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by Cro on March 12, 2006
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It is not a matter of age. It is a matter of experience, attention to details, maturity.
A lot of the Reptile Keepers at Zoos around the Country, who daily work with the most deadly snakes on the Planet, are in their 20`s. Many maintain private collections in their homes in States where it is Legal.
There are plenty of young keepers out there who are excellent and safe. Most of them had training from a mentor, and most work with venomous snakes with the full knowledge and support of their parents. The main thing these young folks lack is long term experience, which at times can be very usefull. Most of the people age 14 to 17 are keeping native venomous snakes, so in case of a bite, Anti-Venom should be as close as the nearest hospital. Finding a doctor there who knows how to correctly use it is a different matter.
There are also plenty of older keepers who just should not be keeping, as it is for the wrong reasons. There is a bravado thing some folks have, and that is not a good reason for keeping venomous snakes. This is more often seen in the 25 year old to 35 year old keepers, and I believe bite statistics support this notion. This is an age that people can afford to purchase exotic venomous snakes. Most of the snake bites I have seen over the years have been people in this age group, often who had been drinking, and often who were showing off their snake collections to friends. They do dumb stuff that younger keepers would never do, like reach over their Cantill to remove its water bowl from a cage, or free handle their Coral Snake while helping it shed, or trying to grap a small EDB behind the head without using a snake hook.
The biggest concern about someone keeping a Taipan at age 19 should not be his age, so much as his access to Anti-Venom if he or someone else were ever bitten by the snake. Does he live in Florida near the AV Bank? Does he live near a Zoo that keeps Taipan AV, and are they awair they might be called on to supply it for him if he is bitten. He probably can not afford to keep it himself. If he lives out in the middle of the country, and the nearest AV is 6 or 8, or more hours away, that is a huge risk.
At 17 I was keeping Forest Cobras, Indian Cobras, Gaboons, Coral Snakes, and a whole bunch of Rattlesnakes, and other native vemomous. But, I did have access to Anti-Venom, and had had training from a Zoo Director / Curator with many, many years of experience. And I was very meticulous about safe caging, and attention to details.
So, don`t judge a keeper by his Age. Judge him by his Ability, his Attention to Detail, his Access to Secure Caging, his Access to Anti-Venom, his Traning, and the Approvial and Acceptance of the Potential Liability by his Parents.
Just a few late night thoughts on this issue.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by petra on March 12, 2006
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I completely agree with Rob. There is one more thing to mention. It is ILLEGAL for minors to keep venomous. So I don't understand how person breaking the law can call himself responsible. We all live in a community where law applies to everyone. Sure I may not agree with every law but, others may have different opinion. That doesn't mean I'll do as I wish just because I don't agree with it. Life wouldn't be possible without rules.
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by Cro on March 12, 2006
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Petra: Perhaps in Kansas it is Illegal for minors to keep venomous snakes, but that rule does not apply in many other States.
For instance, here in Georgia, all non-venomous native snakes are protected, and all venomous native snakes are Legal. The law does not specify age limits.
So, in this State, it would be a Parents responsibility if they allowed their minor child to keep native venomous snakes or not. JohnZ
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by LarryDFishel on March 12, 2006
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>It is a proven fact that until males, for example, reach 21 years of age (and sometimes older) that their brains are not fully developed and make many decisions based on emotions and irrationability...that's scientifically proven.
Reb,
Can you point me to specific research you are referring to? I would be willing to bet that it contains words like "average" or "typically"...
I certainly knew people in highschool who were more mature and responsible than almost any adult I know to date.
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