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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by Russelli on March 13, 2006
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Than here is the debate..When is it ok to get into hot herping? Jim Harrison caught his first rattlesnake at the age of 12 and was milking King cobras at the tender age of 17!!! Now it is wrong for a 19yr old to own a Taipan but it is ok for a minor to milk a King?!
"At twelve years old Jim caught his first rattlesnake, and by 17 was starting to extract venom from king cobras. That same year Jim took a summer job at an alligator farm in Florida where he began to wrestle alligators."
http://www.cincyherps.com/event.php?id=20
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by AquaHerp on March 13, 2006
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ToddG and Russelii, in typical "I'm going to be a smart mouth and pop off to show myself" fashion, you just said that all Curators believe that we can keep venomous snakes but nobody else can. One might be wise to remember that when arguing reptile facts, or even loose opinions, it would be wise to know the audience and the mere facts behind a statement before putting it in writing to the entire reading world.
The thread was fairly sensible up until that point.
Doug Hotle
General Curator
Abilene Zoo
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by stopgetinpopped on March 13, 2006
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From: stopgetinpopped ()
Date: TODAY
Subject: RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
Subscribe: No
I agree with both sides of this discussion. However, just thought I would throw out a typical Curator responce...
Answer me this...How many Curators in the U.S. keep Taipans in their collection? I wonder why? I wonder if experience, knowledge and wisdom come into play anywhere?
Why don't you ask Rob if he keeps or plans on keeping Taipans...why and/or why not...
I'll bet that access to A/V comes in somewhere in his responce.
Which shows wisdom, knowledge and experience.
I started working with Taipans at the age of 20...was that wise...no. Even though antivenom was always on hand. There really are some snakes that require an incredible amount of experience to work with. Would I say that a 16 year old with 24 inch forceps, 30 inch snake hook some book knowledge a level head and understanding parents shouldn't keep a native copperhead? no.
Is there such a thing as a mellow Taipan as suggested earlier? yes. but does this change that animals physical capabilites? No. Does being exposed to one taipan for a few months qualify anyone to keep that species or individual. No.
Do I think some people even experienced people make Taipans out to be more difficult to work with than they really are. Yup.
Does that mean they should be available to own publically? Due to the inaccessible nature (in the U.S.), cost of A/V and the unwilling attitude of most keepers especially young keepers to aquire their own antivenom for this species. No.
Terry
Curator of Reptiles
Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, S.D.
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by AquaHerp on March 13, 2006
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Actually, before this gets out of hand here, let me delve further. When is a person ready to handle a venomous snake? That's not for me to say here , certainly not over the internet, and certainly not strictly by an age alone factor. Although one would have to agree that a 19 year old being bitten by a pet venomous snake would bring about tenfold the bad press than a 40 year old, or even a 21 year old for that matter. It's simply a matter of how the public in general views it from the outside as well. But that's a different story, and one I am not here to debate.
I did however wish to take a second to expound upon the former note before it got too many nasty replies to clarify my meaning. As such, most professionals out there have collections of herps at home and know a good many private people who have herps at home and are all for the responsible private keeping of herps. There is nothing more annoying than someone making comments about "ZOO People" or the like when they really have little to no clue as to what they are talking about other than making wild assumptions or going on what they "heard at an expo from someone's cousin".
Honestly, it goes both ways. If you ever wonder why many in the business stop coming to the forums, or slithering through the herp expos....I wonder why. It just gets old. And I have often wondered to myself why in the world the private sector insists on isolating themselves more and more when it seems to me that they need friends more than ever in these days ahead. So really the typical Curator action would be to simply sit back and watch as the private sector keeps shooting itself in the foot and not have any response at all, eh? Then again, maybe some of us have a vested interest too.
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by LarryDFishel on March 13, 2006
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Russelli,
while I make no claim of sage status I'd like to impart a tidbit of wisdom that a lot of people never seem to appreciate:
"Do as I say, not as I do (did actually)" is a perfectly valid argument. Just because someone once did something that was not a good idea does not make them unqualified to speak on the subject. In fact, they probably have a better idea than most of WHY it is not a good idea...
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by Buzztail1 on March 13, 2006
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Just an odd coincidence:
I actually saw (and took a photo of) a vial of $18,000 per vial Taipan antivenin this past weekend.
That is for ONE vial!!!
Could I "handle" a Taipan?
Maybe...Maybe not.
Could I afford to make that one little mistake?
Absolutely not!
Whoever winds up with this snake - I hope they have the experience AND the insurance to deal with this snake.
Do I think something like this belongs in some teenager's bedroom?
Sorry but, No I don't.
Do I think a teenager can manage a copperhead, cottonmouth, local version of a rattlesnake (even a Southern Pacific)?
Sure, chances of surviving the bite of one of these is reasonably high.
One mistake with a Taipan, Mamba (Green or Black doesn't matter much to me), large Bothrops of any species (and you guys can add in the other "baddies" as you see fit - these are just examples) is way too much for an individual to have to deal with let alone someone with as little "life-experience" as most teenagers have.
Just my opinion.
I am not a curator.
I am not a lawmaker.
I am a private citizen who brought home his first venomous snake at 16.
"It" was a Southern Copperhead AND a large Canebrake version of Timber Rattlesnake that I caught within feet of each other.
Karl H. Betz
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by JHarrison on March 14, 2006
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First if you don't have antivenom you should not have a taipan or other exotic snake. As far as my past 12 was too young and I was just lucky to not be hurt. I graduated from high school at 17 and was working for a researcher extracting venom. It was not at my home- it was at a university. We had antivenom on hand. I got my IND number at 21 years old and have had my own antivenom on hand since then.
I look back and often think how did I live this long doing stupid things. But I can say from experience that most people are not ready to work with venomous at any age let alone under 21.
-Jim Harrison
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by Rob_Carmichael on March 14, 2006
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Good to see other rational folks out there. The "curator" comments really irk me because it shows that the younger folks replying to my comments lack the proper maturity, good judgement capabilities, respect, professionalism (and I am not talking about being a professional herpetologist, I am just speaking in terms of how to act in a "professional" manner), resources (come on teenagers, how can you truly afford Taipan A/V?!), etc. Sure, my facility would love to keep a Taipan and we have the skills and resources to do so but we choose not to have them simply for the fact that A/V is so difficult to obtain and its hard for me to justify the expense to just keep one on exhibit. We are in the midst of making some other tough calls on possibly reducing our venomous collection a bit due to the difficulty in procurring certain types of A/V.
The ridiculous comments of "well, if I am old enough to own a rifle, drive a car, vote, blah, blah, blah has no bearing on private ownership of lethally dangerous venomous herps (I personally think that the driving age should be raised to at least 19 years of age and probably 21; not a real popular position with two teenage daughters!). If I had a neighbor who was a bright, responsible, knowledgeable and dedicated teenager who owned a Taipan, I would have a very serious problem with that (not with the kid, but with the situation); period. The comment of "my mom knows how to take care of my rattlesnakes when I am not around" shows a shallowness that gives me little hope for continued rights for private ownership of venomous herps (which I fully support but it sure is hard to endorse when I see some of the comments that I read on various forums - thankfully, there are enough dedicated private folks who I have the world of respect for that I hope they can continue to do what they love).
So, I'll go on my "snooty" curator ways (not sure why curators are held in such a negative light....jealousy, envy, what is it?...dang, I feel like I have the greatest job on earth) and continue to tell young folks to wait until they graduate from college, get their own place (house) and have the knowledge, experience, training and resources to own a venomous snake that will hopefully not have the potential to kill them. Sorry folks, but young people just have no business keeping Taipans.
I have much more to say but I better shut up as this thread has remained fairly well behaved but I feel something brewing.
Rob Carmichael, hobbyist (who also happens to be a curator if that makes some people happy)
Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by toddg on March 14, 2006
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Karl, sorry it was $1'800.00 per vial. That's still a great deal of money when, I believe, the typical bite requires three vials!
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RE: Some things scare and pi$$ me off
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by toddg on March 14, 2006
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Mature…? Respectful…? Professional…? Rob, my comments about the “typical curator” may have been out of line. For that I apologize to all who were offended. But Rob, you’ve done NOTHING to dispel that myth! The “ridiculous” analogies of car driving, handgun ownership, and war in relation to venomous snake ownership, ARE valid despite what you think! If little “Johnny” is old enough to go stand on a street corner in Iraq with an M-16 then who are we to tell him that he can’t keep a venomous snake because it’s too dangerous! Maybe you are right! Maybe Cody (no last name in bio) is too young to keep tiapans, mambas, cobras, kraits, or many of the other things he claims to keep in his bio. The fact is Rob, that he IS over 18 and is LEAGALY considered to be an adult and, provided he is properly permitted, can keep anything he wants to despite what you, me, or anyone else has to say. As far as any jealousy goes… Yea, I admit it, I am jealous. I would like to work with venomous snakes. I am however, reluctant to do so because I also like living in SAN DIEGO! And though we do have a nice “little zoo” with a “decent” reptile facility, it’s, frankly, not the highest paying position available and while I have the utmost respect and admiration for those who do so, I simply like being able to afford some of the things that a zoo budget would prohibit. If that makes me a bad person than so be it.
toddg
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