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RE: Florida and Eastern Cottonmouths
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by earthguy on January 29, 2007
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I know that I'm going to catch flack for this, but here it goes: The differences between these two subspecies (or any two subspecies for that matter) are pretty superficial. The Florida Cottonmouth is generally larger, they may (on average) have a few more ventrals and/or subcaudals (which is probably due to their size), and they have pronounced vertical dark lines on either side of the rostral. Is that sort of the answer that you were looking for?
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RE: Florida and Eastern Cottonmouths
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by GREGLONGHURST on January 29, 2007
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No flack here. Actually, according to the books, the size for both ssps is pretty much the same. Strongest point of difference seems to be the pronounced facial markings in conanti. I would not be at all surprised if there is intergradation throughout central Georgia & anywhere else the subspecies' ranges overlap.
~~Greg~~
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RE: Florida and Eastern Cottonmouths
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by jared on January 30, 2007
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You are correct as always Greg, or most of the time lol. They intergrate heavily throughout GA and N FL. Plus I think the fls look nicer, Hey I have had the chance to check out the easterns here in NNews VA, look them up on the map and I believe its about as far as they go. The Easterns here are huge too, very similar to conanti.
Jared
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RE: Florida and Eastern Cottonmouths
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by thedude on February 2, 2007
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The cottons in Newport "Bad" News are very good looking. All are fully patterened as adults and the population is skewed towards large animals. There is only one population further north in VA and that is in Hopewell. I am studying the population in NN for my master's and I also work for NN Parks and Rec and would like people to know that there is no collecting allowed in the park w/o a permit.
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RE: Florida and Eastern Cottonmouths
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by skyChimp on February 11, 2007
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I've herped Newport News Park for years. It's a particular area of abundance for A. p. piscivorus, especially the north end of the reservoir that has been turned into a beaver swamp. My last observation, and capture, was in September 2006. It was an incidental catch near the nature trail on the NW side of the reservoir near the boardwalk entrance. The baby snake was near the trail and in easy reach of the dogs people like to walk on the trail (and which are usualy allowed to root around in the grass clumps that tend to hold these snakes). I caught the snake, photographed it, and removed it further off the trail.
I've noticed that the storms of 2006 caused a lot of blowdowns of trees mere yards from the water's edge. A huge number of blowdowns throughout the park. These upturned root bases will no doubt turn into excellent denning sites for snakes of all sorts.
By the way, A. p. piscivorus is relatively common throughout Newport News, Hampton, and York County. In Newport News, they seem to be abundant in the ditch system in Oyster Point Industrial Park. I've captured and removed several adults. I've also personally observed them in Greenville Co and New Kent Co (Chickahominy Reservoir) which is supposed to be outside their range in Virginia.
I do not collect wild snakes at all. I do have a keen interest in all snakes and A. p. piscivorus in particular. I am not aware of any state law in Virginia, however, that prohibits the capture and possession for personal use of any "non-listed" snake, even venomous varieties. There is a law that governs the number that can be collected and possessed - 5. The only "listed" snake would be the Canebrake - endangered in Virginia. No license is required.
My wife worked for NN Parks and Rec for years and I still have a close association with some that run that department. I suppose any rule in the city prohibiting collection from the park would be a general rule about removal of wildlife. I am not aware of any law, ordinance or park rule that prohibits the seeking and photographing of any snake in the park.
BTW, a pic of September's snake.... (copy-n-paste)
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/baby.jpg
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RE: Florida and Eastern Cottonmouths
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by skyChimp on February 11, 2007
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BTW, (specifically for TheDude) what's the condition of the Copperhead population in NN Park? Any idea? In all the years I've wandered the trails and "back woods", I've only seen a few. Given that it is supposed to be a common species, I surprised I haven't seen more.
I also forgot to tell you that I, for one, appreciate the work you are doing. NN Park is an oasis in Hampton Roads. One of the things that makes it especially neat is the Cottonmouth. The snakes are wonderful, and deserve studying and need protection. I don't think NN Park would ever be the same if the Cottonmouth dissappeared from it.
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RE: Florida and Eastern Cottonmouths
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by thedude on February 20, 2007
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The regulations concerning the collection of all wildlife inside of Newport News Parks is regulated by local (City of NN) laws. Please don't take that to mean that you cannot look for stuff or take photos. It just means leave them as you found them!
What area of the Chickahominy Reservoir did you observe them (also what year)? This is very interesting to me as it would represent the northern-most population of easterns.
As for Greenville - do you mean Greenville by 81? If so I would think that you are mistaken, because that is way outside of their known range! Even in the Carolinas they barely get past the Fall Line!
As far as copperheads - I have not seen a single copperhead at the park ever and I can even say (with high confidence) that not one has been seen in this century! A while back a guy did a little study on copperheads on the peninsula and came to the conclusion that coppers are not common at all on the lower end but increase in abundance around Williamsburg and further north.
As far as your statement about cottonmouths being relatively common throught Newport News, Hampton, and York County, I have not seen that to be the case! Every report of a cottonmouth that I have gone to verify outside of the park has either turned up inconclusive or is just a Nerodia! Please e-mail me with dates and specific locales (I have not finished writing my thesis and I have a section on the distribution of cottonmouths on the peninsula). I will have to check out those ditches at Oyster Point though.
"I've noticed that the storms of 2006 caused a lot of blowdowns of trees mere yards from the water's edge. A huge number of blowdowns throughout the park. These upturned root bases will no doubt turn into excellent denning sites for snakes of all sorts." Maybe, but apparently not for the cottonmouths. I was thinking the same thing, but they are not being used (even the old ones that came down a long time ago). The cottons in the park are very picky about their dens sites! I have located a great many and they are all of the same type - not blowdowns.
Please respond back!
thanks,
thedude
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RE: Florida and Eastern Cottonmouths
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by thedude on February 20, 2007
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One more thing - I agree -it would be a trajedy if NN Park lost its cottons! But there is no need to worry (at least yet) my mark recapture data indicates an extremely healthy population (downright scary to non-snake folk)!
Cheers!
thedude
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RE: Florida and Eastern Cottonmouths
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by skyChimp on February 22, 2007
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First, let me say that while I am no expert, I am able to identify the snakes I see, as long as I am relatively close to them.
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Q: What area of the Chickahominy Reservoir did you observe them (also what year)? This is very interesting to me as it would represent the northern-most population of easterns.
A: I am confident that I observed at least one on the north side of the lake just northwest of Ed Allen’s in the portion loosely known as Johnson Creek (so named on GMCO Pro Series Map of the Chickahominy). That was last year, probably in June. I believe I also saw one swimming in August or September in the same general area. I believe this was piscivorus given its size, banding, and the high attitude of the body in (or rather on) the water.
I’m familiar with Nerodia. I’ve seen many of them and here is a specimen I photographed and captured from my boat on the Chickahominy in 2005:
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/nerodia.jpg
If you are at all familiar with that portion of the reservoir, it is very swampy. There is a huge amount of cover. Additionally, this would be “above” Walker’s Dam which represents the fall line.
Please understand that I did not photograph the snakes I believe I saw which usually raises immediate suspicion that the snakes were misidentified. Unfortunately, I only photograph a tiny fraction of what I see. I usually have my Abu Garcia in my hand when I’m on the water, not my Sony.
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Q: As for Greenville - do you mean Greenville by 81? If so I would think that you are mistaken, because that is way outside of their known range! Even in the Carolinas they barely get past the Fall Line!
A: No, no. I’m sorry, Greensville, the county in which Emporia is located. That’s just outside the “known” range of piscivorus. That would have been in the late 90s.
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Q: As far as copperheads - I have not seen a single copperhead at the park ever and I can even say (with high confidence) that not one has been seen in this century! A while back a guy did a little study on copperheads on the peninsula and came to the conclusion that coppers are not common at all on the lower end but increase in abundance around Williamsburg and further north.
A: Well they certainly aren’t common. I’ve seen them on the Chickahominy Wildlife Management Area when spring turkey hunting, and in the early summer during after-season scouting. As far as NN Park, they may not be abundant at all. But I can certainly say they have been seen within the last century – by myself. I’ve seen two that I can remember, both in the back area of the park near the York County line where there used to be, and maybe still is, a trail that led to the ruins of a house and a fresh water spring on the National Historical Park in Yorktown. This would have been in the mid 80s. I used to walk that trail with an ex-brother-in-law, and also performed land-navigation training when I was in ROTC at CNU (CNC back then).
Incidentally, I spoke to a park Ranger at the interpretive center a few weeks ago who stated she knew there were copperheads in the park, and stated the canebrake also existed in the park, which I have personally never seen (in the park)
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Q: As far as your statement about cottonmouths being relatively common throught Newport News, Hampton, and York County, I have not seen that to be the case!
A: Your definition of common and mine may be different. In the strictest terms, you may be right. In the strictest sense, I’m not sure any big snake is common. But I have yet to have a really hard time locating piscivorus at NN Park. But it does take some looking. As I stated, the north end of the reservoir around the beaver swamp has been most productive for me. I’ve located them by searching the tall grass around the waters edge. In the fall, I’ve found small ones under leaves in the same areas. The picture of the baby I posted a link to was found near the west end of the boardwalk that goes through the swamp. It was located just off the trail near a small drainage creek that flowed under a small foot bridge. It was lying at the base of small tree. Here’s another view:
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/baby.jpg
As far as Hampton goes, they are known to exist in Sandy Bottom Nature Park. And I have heard enough from people I trust that they have turned up in York County as well.
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Q: I will have to check out those ditches at Oyster Point though.
A: I worked for an insurance company on Rock Landing Drive. There used to be, and may still be, a population that lived in the ditches between Rock Landing Drive and I-64. I personally removed a couple from around our business to an area further down the ditch. One particular snake crawled, on several occasions, into our drive-in garage where customers brought their cars for inspection. I moved it several times only to have it return. I was killed (not by me) since it had a fondness for our garage. This was back in the late 90s. That company is no longer there, but the building is. It was located at the end of Rock Landing, near the Postal building, on the interstate side of the road. That ditch area might still be worth a look. I know there has been some development back there, but that ditch still exists as far as I can tell. These snakes were very black, and the largest I saw was relatively small, about 3 feet.
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Q: I was thinking the same thing, but they are not being used (even the old ones that came down a long time ago). The cottons in the park are very picky about their dens sites! I have located a great many and they are all of the same type - not blowdowns.
A: I would have assumed so. There are so many now. I have not attempted to retrieve any snake from what I thought might be a den site. I suspect that the snakes are denning much closer to the waters edge, or even in the lodges in the swamp itself. I have ideas, but it’s not my intention to disturb a denning snake since I have no legitimate reason to do so.
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Hope all this fits in one post.
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