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11-16 of 16 messages
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RE: this guy just doent get it
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by tj on February 1, 2007
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Larry, I'll shoot you an e-mail in the am.
Now I know that bitis can be, and are acrobatic, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Yes, cobras are best to be tailed, as are most elapids, with the exceptions of aspidelaps and acanthophis. But at times, there are the exceptions to the rule that certain snakes have to be tailed, preferably not for a photo-op, but even I'm guilty of having pics taken with a wild-caught asper in Costa Rica. I've seen keepers hook and tail lachesis, I recall even you, Jared, and a pic with a muta a few years back. I've seen people tail bothrops, 6 foot horridus, puffs, EDB's, you name it. But it has by people that are well known on the forums and noone says anything. I'm not for or against tailing for the right reasons, it has to be done at times. But why is it okay for some, but not for others? Why is it that certain people can take pics of head restraints, but not others? Why is it that certain people are all for having AV and are first to make comments to others, when the same people don't have their own supply themselves? At what point are we going to practice what we preach? I HAVE tailed snakes many times before, I don't have AV, but have access to it, and I hate pinning. I'm not a perfect keeper by any means, but I won't criticize someone for doing something that MAY be wrong, if I'm doing the same myself.
And I definitely won't jump on the bandwagon. And to be quite honest, I'd rather see someone tail a large snake, than to handle the damn thing with "gentle" giants and risk injury to the snake. And some, like an asper or lachesis, can't be manipulated with two hooks if they are in a wirey mood, making it safer for both the keeper and snake to tail it.
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RE: this guy just doent get it
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by plainblain on February 1, 2007
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Threads like this are important to impress upon less experienced collectors what not to do. "Less experienced" does not refer to chronological age. It means not as much experience as someone else.
I am almost sixty and I am "less experienced" than many of the young collectors here. As a result of being less experienced, I would not dream of collecting most of the venomous snakes others do. But the reality is that old world hots are available and less experienced people are going to buy them to get experience. I would bet most don't have mentors...so they come here for advice from people who have done it before and will tell them how to do it, or how not to do it.
This classied ad has become an issue here and normally I don't like issues or people with issues but maybe this is a good issue. It has raised awareness on handling these big dangerous snakes. Use two hooks rather than one and the tail.
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RE: this guy just doent get it
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by ginny on February 1, 2007
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I'd like to thank everyone for posting in this thread. I,ve only been keeping large Bitis for a month and this is the kind of stuff I need to hear. As for tailing Puffs, are you insane? I remove my 3 foot female from her enclosure every week to give her fresh water and she's a complete phycopath. I use a pair of 4 foot hooks and a safety box and couldnt get near her even if i wanted too!
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RE: this guy just doent get it
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by AlanHyde on February 2, 2007
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Quote Jared: " Look, bushmasters, tercipelos,gaboons are not animals that need to be handled, period."
That's a good point but not strictly true Jared. Over here in UK it is near on impossible to find quality CB bitis. Most are wild caughts and come in half dead, dehydrated, loaded with parasites etc.
If I buy that animal it is my responsibility to treat it with any medication that it may need . The animal must be given the care it deserves and returned to full health, and this is not possible without handling to administer medication via oral tube or injection.
All the best,
Alan
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RE: this guy just doent get it
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by Atrox788 on February 2, 2007
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Though I cant coment specificly on large bitis as I never kept any I can tell that it is safe and in some cases wize to hook and tail large crotalids. I had one pirticular cottommouth which was approaching 6f that I could have never moved had it not been for the hook and tail method due to its extream weight and runny nature of this specimen. Keeping him on two hooks was imposible most of the time and had I lifted him up to the level needed to place him in my transfer bin (i.e large trash can)and he decided to squirm without me secureing his tail and keeping him in place, well, he could fall a good 3 ft to hard tile floor and I didnt want to take the chance. I also used a python hook to support his mass and although he wouldnt be happy about it, he seemed to calm down alittle compared to the alternative two hook method which he hated. I understand that bitis are more acrobatic then Agkistrodon but I can see a similar situation as mine coming into play with the genus. If one is well versed and properly secures the animal you can do so with almost 100 percent confidence but again I admit this is reffering to Crotalus and Agkistrodon not Bitis and Bothrops (the latter I would never use anything but a trapbox for unless I had to medicate).
As for the guy in the pic, holding any large bodied snake or any snake period for that matter by its tail tip is just wrong wrong wrong. Thats cloest comapred to a male being hung by his genetals IMHO and should be looked at as just as cruel. The amount of disregard for the snake's well being in pictures like that realy makes me wannt to vomit.
On another note, I understand the complaint about bitis comeing back over their bodies and trying to avoid touching them at all cost but I find it odd that people with this mentality are also saying it is proper to tail elapids like dendroaspis. Im sorry but id have to put tailing a mamba as much more of a risk then tailing any decent length gaboon anyday of the week. The gaboon may be explosive enough to come back and nail you on the hand, or come close. Dendroaspis IS capable of coming back on its own body and tagging you in the face! There is no quessing about it.
Whenever you handle by putting your hands on the animal you are putting yourself at risk. Even when useing 2 hooks mistakes can happen. I would tend to agree not to tail large bitis but I have also met many people whom do and I dont think ill of them. None of these people mind you hold by the tail in the mannor of the picture in question. They know the animals as well as one can and properly support them but also use their witts and keep it as safe as posible.
Though I agree danger can be kept at an absolute minimum by never touching them or always useing 2 hooks to transport (gabby's generaly seem easy going enough to sit on 2 hooks though they may hiss alot. Some large crotalids I have worked were not however) in this hobby there is no such thing as "not dangerous". Our undertakeing will always have a danger aspect. Ignorance is our biggest foe, a prime example being the idiot hanging a gabby by the tail.
Anyway, a very long uneeded rant I know but my 2 cents for what its worth.
Best regards,
Jeremy
P.S BTW, great to see you around Alan! Im Jeremy G/Taipan78 from way back when at pitvipers.com. How have ya been mate?
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RE: this guy just doent get it
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by AlanHyde on February 2, 2007
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Jeremy! Great to see you too mate! Hey , send me an email and let me know how things are, i'd love to hear from you :¬)
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