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RE: Question for Chuck Hurd
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by JHarrison on May 10, 2007
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Just a note:
Gordon Schuett is a noted leader in pit viper behavior, taxonomy, and reproductive physiology. Yes he is a busy man! He is currently at AZ State, I believe.
Wolfgang Wuster is also a noted leader in snake taxonomy, among many other things.
Science in general, and taxonomy in particular, advances due to debate and in some cases controversy. Remember that the term 'DNA' can refer to an almost limitless number of loci that a researcher can use. Therefore mitochondrial DNA (mDNA) can yield vastly different results than one set of cellular DNA (cDNA) and even two sets of cDNA can also differ dramatically. No one is using the entire genome to do these studies; they choose loci based on educated guesses as to what part of the genome will be the most telling regarding the relationships between animals. Of course, that can lead to debate, etc.
Personally, I'm interested to see how the horridus turns out, but until it goes through peer review and is published, its kinda pointless for us to debate it here.
One other note: Gordon uses what animals are available to sample. He does use wild samples, and has sampled extensively in the field as well as using private collections when locality data is available. His sample sizes are generally among the largest I have seen for DNA work (generally in the 100s) and using such a large size minimizes the effect that possible mistakes (such as Chuck being biased) would have. (Not that I'm saying you are, Chuck, just an example.)
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RE: Question for Chuck Hurd
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by Atrox788 on May 10, 2007
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Hi Jim,
Thank you for the clarification. I did not mean to state this as fact or having even been peer reviewed (though I was under the impression that the existing data was). However, I do not feel sampling from private collections is not exact science. In the case of this debate it shouldn’t matter so much unless there is some hybridization in the genetics of chuck's animals. It’s just the process involved which sounds suspect.
I also admit that i know nothing evolutionary biology save for what I can pull from some of the published and unpublished data available, which isn’t alot. On the same note I know that classifying snakes based on morphological differences alone is not they way to go.
Again, thank you for the clarification on Gordon. I was not familiar with his work and did not mean to sound critical of him. Chuck just wasn’t doing a very good job portraying him and when he brought in the religious point, or lack of religion as the case may be, I felt like speaking up.
The evidence available supports that they are the same snake. If new evidence comes to light that contradicts the existing then I will gladly accept it as well. However, denying said evidence because of a religious stand point or even a personal standpoint is foolish. That has nothing to with Gordon however so I take back any bad press I may have given him.
If he is taking samples from actual wild population as well as captive then I feel a little better about him as a professional. However I must still hold fast to the idea that captive animals are dead to the wild i.e are dead to the scientific process. Id be hard pressed to believe the locality data from a snake that a hobbyist said was collected in New York when there is no way of knowing if this animal’s info is accurate.
Anyway, thanks for chiming in.
Regards,
Jeremy
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RE: Question for Chuck Hurd
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by JHarrison on May 10, 2007
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I see your point about using captive animals- you do have to be careful about using private individuals as their records may be inaccurate or incomplete. I'm sure any researcher who uses captive animals has some sort of criteria for what type of records are necessary, but I don't know what exactly Gordon does.
There have been papers published on the horridus group recently, but there were some rather large questions that Gordon and others brought up, having to do with sample size and loci used, that made me reserve judgement. Anyway, there's no problem with being skeptical- especially with info you hear about on the net.
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RE: Question for Chuck Hurd
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by Buzztail1 on May 10, 2007
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Not really diving into the whole "my expert knows more than your expert" debate going on but...
Jeremy, the Brown Tree Snake (Boiga irregularis) is banned from the United States at the federal level as "injurious wildlife".
It is illegal to have (without some form of federal permit) in ANY state regardless of the severity of their winter.
Just a little tidbit I previously researched.
Karl
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RE: Question for Chuck Hurd
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by Atrox788 on May 11, 2007
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Wow, and here I thought it was Va just being stupid. It amazes me the lack of logic used by our officals/there sources in regards to these snakes. They are just a snake that made its way to an Island that has no natural snake predators. It could have been any snake species and the result probaly would have been the same.
Anyway, thanks for the clarification. When I researched Herp laws I only did so at a state and local level.
Take care bud,
Jeremy
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RE: Question for Chuck Hurd
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by ChuckHurd on May 14, 2007
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Ok, if you refuse to admit that the southern and northern copperheads are currently recognized as sub-species, I do not know how I can debate with you. Your personal preference maybe that they are not, but all current data does break them down. I am mentioning morphological differences because this is what I personally have studied and noted. And let me ask you this, how does the timber have a darker pattern? Different markings? More narrow head? Different Venom? The answer is DNA. That is the basis for all geneticial differences. I was not familiar with Wolfgang, so I did a bit of research. Seems he is a noted zoologist. However, I could find absolutely no published research he has done on Horridus. The only time he mentions horridus is when he is quoting work from "Clark, A.M., P.E. Moler, E.E. Possardt, A.H. Savitzky, W.S. Brown & B.W. Bowen (2003) Phylogeography of the timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) based on mtDNA sequences. Journal of Herpetology 37(1): 145-154" which I was not able to find additional information about. I do not understand why you would feel the need to search out Wolfgang in the first place. When Gordon was researching the Horridus, he was located in Atlanta, GA. Right in the heart of the cane/timber breaking point. Gordon specializes in North American pit-vipers. Gordon has a scope that is limited to what we are discussing. Wolfgang is located in Wales, half way around the world from where Horridus are located. Wolfgang is not focused on North American pits, in fact; I can find no research at all he has done on them. I saw him review someone else's book on na pits and quote the research on the horridus, but that was it. I see no logical reason to accept the opinions of Wolfgang over those of Gordon. It appears to me that you are just in search of a researcher that substanuatied your preconceived notion. I never mentioned religion and my religious beliefs have absolutely no bearing on my opinions about Timber Rattlesnakes. And why would Gordon come to me? I am well known in this field. I am respected by the general community. I am focused only on Southeastern Pit vipers. I have nearly 30 adult specimens of Horridus, ranging from NY to FL. Who else has that to offer a researcher? It has been illegal to collect timbers from NY since 1982, meaning my girl is 25 years old. Do a little research and see how many true NY timbers you can come up with? I mentioned Chad, because he is a published author, well respected in the community and has spent a great deal of his life researching the animals in question here. The article he posted a while back vividly highlighted the arguments I am trying to make here and I would like to have you review it.
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