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Curiousity...
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by FlaSnakeHunter on September 21, 2007
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I'd like to set up a scenario and see what the response will be...so bear with me for a moment. Suppose that you are wanting to establish a breeding group, say, for example a 6.6, of Eyelash Tree Vipers (Bothriechis schlegelli) and you have already obtained 4.4. You live in the U.S. in a state which requires a permit for possession of venomous reptiles and you have complied with all state laws for several years. You attend a reptile show where venomous snakes are for sale and you find an individual who is selling exactly what you are looking for...CB Eyelash Vipers, the right age and the right color morph...you are totally impressed with these animals !! After talking with this individual, you discover that he lives in a different state that does not allow any possession of venomous reptiles, however, he is willing to sell them to you at a very discounted price. Do you buy them despite knowing that he is violating the law in his state ? What are your thoughts regarding this situation ?
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RE: Curiousity...
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by Peter84Jenkins on September 21, 2007
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Hypothetically…I wouldn’t do it. Could be a trap or if that guy gets busted he could bring you down too. (I am using "you" as a general expression) It’s seemingly small actions like said scenario that can turn into bigger legal problems for venomous keepers.
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RE: Curiousity...
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by Kingetula on September 21, 2007
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If I live in a state that bans Rattlesnake roundups but I cross state lines and participate in one am I breaking the law because I live in a state that bans them?
He is legal as long as he isn't breaking the law in the state he is selling them in. If he packs them up and takes them back home then he is breaking the law.
I can't buy fireworks here in the State of Florida that are worth a damn but I can drive up I-95 to "South of the Border" and buy just about any kind of fireworks I want. If he is in a state that allows him to sell those snakes, he is fine and so are you.
Maybe he is selling them at a good price so he doesn’t have to bring them back home and break the law.
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RE: Curiousity...
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by fizzbob7 on September 21, 2007
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you're also not responsible for knowing everyone's laws either. i've not seen where a buyer was prosecuted for the seller's wrongdoing. heck, i've not seen where a seller was prosecuted for the buyer's wrongdoing either. whomever is cheating and gets caught gets in trouble.
but, ridiculous legislation is the thing killing the hobby and if there weren't "reasons" to make laws, they'd create them.
if someone is breaking the law already, then new laws won't bother them lol.
like duff up there, he's selling neonate timbers right now, and if some moron who can talk the talk but NOT walk the walk buys them, get bitten and blames him, that is certainly media fodder but in no way the seller's fault.
there are knowledgeable people who sound like dolts and dolts who sound like knowledgeable people.
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RE: Curiousity...
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by Rob_Carmichael on September 21, 2007
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After reading this thread I am even more discouraged at the direction our hobby is going.....right down the tubes. From a purely ethical standpoint, it's just plain wrong to purchase animals from someone that you know is breaking the law. As someoen else mentioned, it could also be a nice little sting operation and someone knowingly buying illegal animals deserves to get flat out busted. That's about all I can say on this subject w/out biting my lip too hard.
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RE: Curiousity...
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by Peter84Jenkins on September 21, 2007
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Well flasnakehunter if this is more than a hypothetical question and you are indeed at a moral crossroads I hope you make the right decision. Most of the other responses were completely immature and unenlightening and if you follow that crowd you will screw it up for the rest. The law is the law and if this is a sting and you buy from someone in an illegal state you are considered an accessory. And what does fireworks, round ups and my selling of neonate timbers (legally by the way) have to do with this mans question? No wonder all the experts quit posting in here. This was not a question that needed a whole hell of a lot of intellect to answer since it was mostly a moral question. But as you can see there are people lacking intellect and morals, which is a catastrophic combination for this hobby. Oh rob if you think this thread is gut wrenching then read the one labeled wild animal cage match. Is this what we have been reduced too?
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RE: Curiousity...
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by fizzbob7 on September 21, 2007
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it's comical how "what we do reflects on us" yet legislators use that ignorance to sneak new laws in on other bills among other things.
the problem is the inherent nature of the hobby. you have snakes, which most people abhore, and you have venom, which most people fear. what does that make? a venomous snake or a hated and feared creature.
real conservationists will tell you straight up, PEOPLE SAVE WHAT THEY LIKE. people are just never going to like venomous snakes because "people" are still educating "little people" at home (if filling young minds with ignorant nonsense is educating) and those little people grow up and make stupid laws.
and the "experts" don't post here anymore because the experts are only concerned with what they have going on, not what the hobby has going on. the same elitist mentality that makes venomous keepers feel superior to the poor sap who keeps red-tail boas is the same thing that keeps the venomous reptile hobby from ever being united so that it can fight back.
things are not only "going poorly" but they're going poorly in a hurry.
it's a lost cause that was never really a cause at all for the majority. for some it was too hard. for others it was just that they never really wanted to be in it for the long haul in the first place.
also, those destroying the hobby don't give a crap about anyone's morals, they have an agenda and will accomplish it no matter what. that's why they'll win easily. this crap about morals is a PERSONAL thing yet it's forced down everyone's throat like it's some sort of religion. common sense is just that, stupidity is the lack of common sense. it has nothing to do with morality. it's either legal or it isn't, just like speeding. the problem isn't the offenses, it's the freaking magnifying glass that is on these offenses. if states cared, there would have been proactive legislation in each state in the 70's that regulated the hobby.
i'm done with this moronic perversion of a hobby. most of the hobbyists are idiots who are compensating for a small weenus, the experienced ones are USUALLY jerks (they know that most of the keepers are compensating too) and the accidents are so tabloidesque that one mistake per year would be enough to tear it down alone. the media, which owns the nation, is not knocking each other over to post a positive story about venomous snakes.
i'm going to be happy with my wimpy little rat snakes and keep to myself. to those who are at the very least HUMAN but still full of knowledge, you guys are the reason that the hobby has lasted as long as it has. without the 41% increase in reptile ownership in 2000, things would be bad but the bird and fish hobbies are picking up steam and the reptile fad is on the way out. there aren't enough who appreciate it to keep it relevant.
for reptile lovers, anonymity may be the key to survival.
sometimes, you can win an unfair fight. sometimes, you have no chance.
good day.
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RE: Curiousity...
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by squigy on September 21, 2007
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Well in here in oklahoma I work pretty closely on making the state boys happy, but with our laws you would be ok. As long as you bought them legally and filled out your end of the paper work and got a reciept then you're clear here. The warden told me that the only problem I could have is if he (the seller) got convicted and then they could hypothetically come and confiscate the animals from me. He said more than likely they would just let it go if they were properly cared for. If you can't tell I've had the same issues before.
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RE: Curiousity...
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by Kingetula on September 22, 2007
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How I read his post was that the guy who was selling the snakes was from another state but is currently selling snakes in a state that allows it. What is wrong with that Peter? Who says he didn't get the snakes from a friend just before the expo and was completely legal transaction and now he is selling them before he goes back home? The OP wasn't real clear on all the details.
You make it sound like his state law follows him wherever he goes. THE OP never said this guy brought the snakes from his home state where it is illegal, just that he came from a state that it is illegal to have them in. He may have them at a great price because he doesn't want to break the law and doing what he can to get rid of them.
About the Fireworks, do my state laws follow me if I buy fireworks in North Carolina and sell them on the side of the road in North Carolina? No! As long as I don't bring them back to Florida I am ok. The guy selling the snakes is totally legal; the OP didn't say where he got the snakes just that where he is from it is illegal. Maybe he told the guy who wanted the snakes what was going on and why the snakes where so cheap because he had to get rid of them before he went back home. Why would anyone tell on themselves? I think he was just letting the guy know he had to sell the snakes because he couldn't bring them back to his home state.
Not enough information to really say anyone is morally wrong or doing anything illegal. I was offered an Alligator at Hamburg, I live in Florida and I need a license but I could have bought it with no problems. Is Florida State going to run up there and bust me? No, as long as I don't bring it back.
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