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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by Buzztail1 on May 3, 2008
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It is unfortunate that this person felt the need to work with his cobra after midnight.
However, almost everything in these articles is factual. Too bad that the actual facts are something that legitimate and responsible keepers don't want to acknowledge.
The only thing that I saw that I totally disagree with was the "If you have snakes," she said, "you are going to get bit." quote. I don't agree with that stance.
The whole specific antivenom for specific snakes is very easy to understand once you get off your soapbox and realize what is really happening out there and who the audience is for this article. People who get bit are often in no shape to accurately describe the bite. The people giving treatment absolutely need to know what kind of snake did the biting to begin treatment. If "Little Johnny" got bit by a snake out in the yard - well that's not enough information to treat him, now is it? So let's just give him some "polyvalent" CroFab - what do you think? And when it turns out that the biter was a Coral Snake? They NEED TO KNOW exactly what kind of snake did the biting to provide the right kind of antivenom - PERIOD!
Okay, so if it was someone's "cobra" that did the biting? And it turns out that it was a King Cobra? Or a False Water Cobra? Or a Forest Cobra? It clearly matters!
You folks just skimmed over all the good information put out in these articles that almost never makes it into the press.
Like the comparison to dog related deaths. The relatively low number of snake related fatalities regardless of whether they were captive or wild.
How about that the guy was legally permitted and that nothing seemed to be out of order?
By the way, it is NOT the job of any reptile curator at any zoo in this country to get out of bed at one A.M. to save the life of someone who decided midnight was a good time to play with their cobra. They help because they can - not because they have to. They very rarely get thanked or reimbursed for this help. I can see where that would get old.
I can see the argument for sometimes bites can happen to responsible people who have an accident. But by-and-large that's mostly not who is in the press getting bitten, is it? Too often we ramble on in here in defense of some person who never should have had snakes in the first place just because we don't want them to take our snakes away. More and more I am beginning to get scared about who is keeping what.
Just my own personal opinions,
Karl H. Betz
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by Chance on May 3, 2008
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In case I'm misunderstanding some of the recent posts, let me clarify: I'm not in any way defending the idiot who let himself be bitten by his cobra. Is idiot too strong a word? Maybe, but bites are always the result of a mistake on the keeper's part. And at this time, during all the struggles we're having to battle to keep our hobby within the realms of legality, anyone who makes that particular mistake is deserving of the nickname. Now, more than ever, we need to practice responsible keeping.
My gripe was how the article author seemed to try to make things out to be a bit more extreme than necessary. Okay, so we have two-thousand some odd venomous snakes on the planet? Apparently we need two-thousand some odd types of A/V to treat them. Well obviously that's way more than we can keep up with, so the logical conclusion would be to stop private keepers from having the animals in the first place. Problem solved - Venom One no longer even needs to keep exotic A/V - well except for those feral populations of S. FL cobras!
Now I'm sorry I didn't go and thoroughly research who Ballester was, but I assumed if he was being quoted as being part of the Venom Response team, then he was. Of course, even if he wasn't, we again have to go back to the fact that laypeople are going to read this article and they won't know any better than I did. They're going to think to themselves: "Wow, if one of the guys whose job it is to save people from their animals is starting to think it isn't worth letting them have them, then we need to do something about it."
All I'm getting to is that it's bad timing all around. We have large groups of people trying to stop the interstate transport of pythons and boas due to the mythological threat they pose to areas in this country other than extreme south FL, and we are seeing one by one states enacting new laws against all types of dangerous animals. It's definitely not a good time for people, even in 'safe' states like FL, to slip up and let their captives nail them, because it just adds the proverbial fuel to the fire of anti-animal legislation and lobbying.
Be safe everyone, and keep your body parts out of the pointy ends of these animals!
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by tigers9 on May 3, 2008
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I can not believe what I am reading here, now there is the magical hour after which people shouldn’t be feeding their animals without being labeled as an irresponsible idiot???
Maybe living in NV which is 24/7 state and never stops, where shift work is a norm, I am little less judgmental, but even in non NV state people have shift work, like doctors, police,911 operators, airline pilots, etc… some people get off shift or go to shift at midnight and it is reasonable to expect they feed the animals at 3AM after or just before their shift.
I am myself a night owl and often do stuff after dark, that in itself is not irresponsible.
If I was the guy in the hospital, not being able to defend myself from being called names, I wouldn’t really like reading attacks on myself on this forum, considering he has more important stuff to do than defend himself from attacks, like he has to recover first.
Instead of assuming what happened and automatically blaming him before you have all the facts, why not wait until he recovers, gives interview to FL wildlife, and then when all the facts are in feel free to make judgment calls.
Z
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by tigers9 on May 3, 2008
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Buzztail1 wrote<< By the way, it is NOT the job of any reptile curator at any zoo in this country to get out of bed at one A.M. to save the life of someone who decided midnight was a good time to play with their cobra. They help because they can - not because they have to. They very rarely get thanked or reimbursed for this help. I can see where that would get old.>>
I would never get tired of feeling good inside if I helped save somebody’s life, regardless if the person was smart or not. That is the idea of gift, it is unconditional, everything else is an extra bonus (medal, thanks, etc…).
The reason we have animal control, insurance, police, etc..is because life is not perfect even if we have all the laws and bans, something will go eventually wrong. Please, do not fall into AR trap that only 100 percent safety in exotic world is acceptable, and even then it is not good enough, since to AR keeping them in captivity is an abuse, as these bans are not about public safety, it is just a bait AR use,
When you look at statistics, the bait doesn’t really hold any water as there is no public safety issue in the big scheme of things, just few isolated widely publicized incidents.
Z
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by Buzztail1 on May 3, 2008
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You are right, that is why we have "animal control, insurance, police, etc."
That is NOT why we have zoos.
That is NOT why zoos carry antivenom.
I have responded and helped save lives before.
Yes, it feels good.
It also doesn't feel good when the person you helped save says "So what if it inconvenienced you. It is my right to keep these animals any way I want to. I don't want anyone to legislate the way I do it. I don't care if you think I am being irresponsible, it is my life."
Yeah, these irresponsible keepers make me feel really good about myself.
And yes, I believe there is a cutoff to when you should work your animals. It has to do with your schedule. I work a normal schedule so for me, late at night is not the time I am most alert and safe. Since this bite occurred in Florida, I would naturally assume, since most things here are not 24/7 that he would be on the same schedule. An assumption? Yes!
But I believe a reasonable one.
And for the record, I called no names and spoke no ill of the "Bitee" other than question his choice of time to work his animals.
R/
Karl
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by tigers9 on May 3, 2008
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Buztail1 wrote:
<,That is NOT why we have zoos.
That is NOT why zoos carry antivenom. >>
My assumption is many AZA zoos are partly publicly funded, but I do not want to go here on anti AZA rant.
My question is , how easy/difficult/possible is it for a private non AZA individual to buy exotic antivenom?
Accoding to th enewest article:
Vet Clin Exot Anim 11 (2008) 389–401
Toxicologic Information Resources
for Reptile Envenomations
Jude McNally, RPh, DABAT*, Keith Boesen, PharmD,
Leslie Boyer, MD, FACMT
Arizona Poison and Drug Information Center, College of Pharmacy, University of Arizona,
1295 N. Martin, Room B308, Tucson, AZ 85721, USA
SNIP
At present, the only antivenoms approved by the FDA for sale and
distribution within the United States are those indicated for the treatment
of bites and stings by animals native to the United States (pit vipers, coral
snakes, and black widow spiders). When people in the United States are bitten
by non-native species, there is no governmental or commercial system
for the timely acquisition of foreign-manufactured antivenoms. Because of
the small number of cases in the United States, there is not sufficient economic
incentive for pharmaceutical companies to manufacture or import
these exotic antivenoms. There is, however, a special provision within
FDA regulations that allows zoos exclusively to order and stock foreignmanufactured,
non-FDA–approved exotic antivenoms for protection of
zoo staff in the event of an emergency.
The Antivenom Index (AI) is a compilation of information related to
these stores of antivenom from zoos across the country. The AI is the product
of a cooperative effort between the American Association of Poison
Control Centers (AAPCC) and the American Zoo Association (AZA).
SNIP
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by Cro on May 3, 2008
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"I would never get tired of feeling good inside if I helped save somebody’s life, regardless if the person was smart or not."
What if you saved that nitwhits life by taking stores of Antivenom from your Zoo's stock that might be needed the very next day to save the live of one of your reptile keepers ?
That it the part that you are not getting, Z.
The Antivenom is there at the Zoo to protect the folks who work at that Zoo from bites of animals those Zoo's are keeping. It is kind of like having a First Aid Kit. Most Zoos have barely enough Antivenom to treat one bite from the venomous animals they keep. Often, they do not even have that much. In a severe bite by a king cobra or mamba, a Zoo might have 10 vials of Antivenom in stock, which might keep someone alive until the 20 to 30 additional vials that will be needed are flown in form other Zoos around the country. If they send off those 10 vials to treat some yahoo who has got bitten by his pet cobra, they could be killing one of their keepers the next day.
The hobbyist who gets bitten by an exotic snake should have his own "First Aid Kit."
People are willing to pay a couple of hundred dollars for a pet cobra, but they are not willing to pay several hundred dollars for an Antivenom supply for that cobra, in case it bites them. They expect that to be covered by someone else.
Just because Zoo's are part of the nationwide antivenom index, does not mean that they are a pharmacy that can be called upon anytime someone needs Antivenom.
It takes months and tons of paperwork to replenish Antivenom stores. And it takes months to get paid by an out of state hospital that you shipped off your Antivenom to.
What should be done, is to set up Antivenom Banks, wethere they are privatly funded with a membership, or are tied into the community fire / rescue departments as we see in Venom 1. That way, it works more like insurance. All the members pay a yearly fee for membership, and have access to the stores of Antivenom that are stocked at a central location.
The USFDA was in talks last year about doing this very thing, on a nationwide reginal basis. But, since this is a government program, it could take many years for it to be set up, if it ever is. They will probably decide it is better to just outlaw venomous snakes nationwide, than to set up Antivenom Banks.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by Cro on May 3, 2008
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Also, on the "Magical Hour" comment.
Yep, there are many reptile keepers who work hard all day long, and come home tired.
And they still have snake cages to clean, and snakes to feed and water.
So, they often can be found working late at night when they are not at their most awake. But they know the welfare of the animals is important, so they still work with the animals.
Right now, it is 10:00 p.m. and I am very tired tonight. But I still have several venomous snake cages to clean, and water bowls to fill. Doing this while tired is more dangerous than it would have been a few hours ago. But it needs to be done. Being tired can lead to bites, just as quickly as free handling, drinking while working reptiles, showing off, etc.
When I worked at the Atlanta Zoo, we had 5 folks maintaining an reptile exhibit that was designed to have 11 folks. Because of the sleazy city of atlanta government, we were underfunded, under employed, and underpaid. It was very dangerous to work two sections per day, and three sections on hollidays, in that building. We had 80 degree plus temperatures and tropical humidity in all of the sections except for amphibians. It was a very challenging place to work.
Now, before you say, if it is that difficult, why not get rid of some of the animals, realise that sometimes the animals we are keeping have offspring. You can wind up with 20 new mouths to feed overnight. And that increases the work load a huge ammount.
Karl knows what I am talking about, as does anyone else who has ever worked in a reptile building of a Zoo. Especially a city or municipal Zoo. If you have never worked in that enviornment, it is very difficult for you to grasp just what all is involved.
Hope this makes some sense.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by tigers9 on May 3, 2008
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Here is AZA press release where they clearly state the antivenom banks are for them AND for the communities of private citizens who keep the snake. AZA has to go thru less red tape to get the exotic antivenom than non AZA Joe Public. Plus, to answer Cro's question, who made me god to decide in emergency if the injured person I never met is an idiot or not?
Why is there so much eliticism in exotic animal community? Not just here on this forum, trust me, exotic cat people can fight too and be know it alls stuck ups..GRRRRRRR
Z
==
<SNIP>
In addition, AZA members support their communities by making these stores available to hospitals and doctors when private citizens encounter and are bitten by venomous reptiles.
<SNIP>
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/610171/zoos_aquariums_and_poison_centers_debut_new_webbased_antivenom_index/index.html
Zoos, Aquariums and Poison Centers Debut New Web-Based Antivenom Index to Speed Antidote Delivery; Uses Technology to Speed Up Treatment
SILVER SPRING, Md., Aug. 10 /U.S. Newswire -- A venomous snakebite can create a life-threatening situation. Often, the proper treatment requires the use of a specific antidote, called an antivenom, and the speed with which it can be obtained and administered can mean the difference between life and death. Approximately 3,000 native and 50 non-native (exotic) bites from venomous snakes are reported to U.S. poison centers each year. When the situation involves an exotic species, determining the appropriate antivenom, locating a supply, and getting it to the patient become particularly difficult challenges.
A collaborative effort by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) and the American Association of Poison Control Centers (AAPCC) uses new technologies to get treatment to the patient faster. Launched today, the Online Antivenom Index is a web-based database allowing doctors, poison control centers and hospitals to access up- to-date information about antivenom stocked at AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums. In addition, the Antivenom Index offers information about what antivenom to use and allows coordination of delivery to the patient.
Antivenom (also referred to as antivenin) is a biological product used to provide medical treatment for venomous bites and stings. Similar to a vaccine, antivenom introduces antibodies into the victim reducing the effect of the venom. Many AZA- accredited zoos and aquariums who work with venomous species maintain supplies of antivenom to treat animal care staff who may accidentally get bitten while caring for these species. In addition, AZA members support their communities by making these stores available to hospitals and doctors when private citizens encounter and are bitten by venomous reptiles.
The original Antivenom Index, also a collaborative effort by the AZA and the AAPCC, was published at irregular intervals in hard copy for the past 23 years. "Over the years, it became increasingly obvious that in order for the Index to remain a viable tool it needed an immediately available format that can continually be updated," said Leslie Boyer, M.D., director of the Arizona Poison and Drug Information Center at the University of Arizona College of Pharmacy. She is the lead investigator under a poison center stabilization and enhancement grant (Grant 5H4BMC00938) provided in 2004 by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Health Resources and Services Administration (DHHS/HRSA). "The electronic Index is the most efficient way for the AZA and the AAPCC to quickly collaborate to treat venomous snakebites," she said.
"The new Index can be life-saving," said Jim Maddy, president and CEO of the AZA. "While the primary purpose of the Index is to assist personnel at a poison control center to locate the appropriate antivenom in the case of a snakebite, the Index also will assist zoo and aquarium staff in selecting and importing appropriate antivenoms for treatment of bites and stings by animals in their care."
"The AZA and the AAPCC recognize that most exotic snakebites occur among private collectors, who rarely, if ever, have their own antivenom. When this occurs, the only readily available supply is from zoo or aquarium stocks," said Steven Seifert, M.D., a participant in the Antivenom Index development team, member of the AAPCC board of directors, and the medical director of the Nebraska Regional Poison Center.
The online Antivenom Index, at http://www.aza.org/ai/, is password-protected and may be accessed only by AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums to update their stocking information or by any poison center when treatment is needed.
"AZA-accredited organizations have expert animal care staff who manage a range of exotic reptiles," said Don Boyer, AZA Antivenom Index chair and curator of herpetology at the San Diego Zoo. "The Index is an important tool that provides current information about appropriate antivenoms on the rare occasions when a snakebite occurs."
This Index is not intended as a key to the identification of venomous species. In the event of an envenomation (injection of a poisonous material by sting, spine, bite, or other similar means), the animal species involved must first be correctly identified. An expert in the field should be consulted to confirm identification. "The Index is also not intended to replace the advice of the attending physician, but rather to serve as a reference," said Maddy. "It is the responsibility of the designated senior zoo or aquarium staff to develop and maintain a working relationship with the physicians and hospitals that would manage venomous snakebites for their institution."
The listing of venomous species in this Index is extensive, but not exhaustive. "It does cover virtually all of the venomous reptiles native to the United States or commonly held in zoos and aquariums or private collections as well as all of the animals for which we have confirmation that an antivenom is produced," said Seifert. The breadth of the repositories covers primarily snakes, one fish, and a variety of invertebrate species.
Even if antivenom is manufactured for a particular species, there is no guarantee that the antivenom is available in North American institutions. If no zoo or aquarium currently has any specimens of a particular snake, the specific antivenom may not be available. In those instances, the Index provides information on possible alternative antivenoms as well as adjunctive therapies that may be useful.
ABOUT AAPCC
The American Association of Poison Control Centers (AAPCC) is a private nongovernmental association representing the country's 61 Poison Control Centers and their staff and affiliated toxicologists. It manages the only poisoning surveillance database in the United States, which contains information regarding calls to the toll-free Poison Help hotline, 1-800-222- 1222. The 24-hour Poison Help hotline is continuously staffed by pharmacists, physicians, nurses and poison information providers. Poison centers also engage in public and professional educational outreach, poison prevention efforts, and provide expert consultants to governments, health systems, healthcare providers, industry, and the media.
ABOUT AZA
Founded in 1924, the Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the advancement of zoos and aquariums in the areas of conservation, education, science, and recreation. Look for the AZA logo whenever you visit a zoo or aquarium as your assurance that you are supporting a facility dedicated to providing excellent care for animals, a great experience for you, and a better future for all living things. With its more than 200 accredited members, the AZA is a leader in global wildlife conservation, and your link to helping animals in their native habitats.
http://www.usnewswire.com
(c) 2006 U.S. Newswire. Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning. All rights Reserved.
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by Cro on May 4, 2008
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Z, I think you still do not understand.
Of cource,the AZA is going to say that the Antivenom at Zoos is available to the public. And zoo keepers will still help get that Antivenom to someone who needs it, even though it can endanger their own folks.
And putting the Antivenom Index Database online is an improvement, even if it is 10 years later than it should have been.
My point though, is that the stocks of Antivenom at Zoos should not be considered a pharmacy, despite what the AZA has to say.
If people who purchase exotic venomous snakes as pets have the attitude that they are safe, because the Zoo down the road has Antivenom, we are creating a more dangerous situation for themselves.
While some states like Florida have a mentoring requirement that requires 1000 hours of venomous snake experience before getting a permit, in many other areas, some yahoo with $200.00 and no venomous keeping experience can go out and buy a pet Mamba. While you think that is perfectly acceptable, I do not. Call me an elitist all you want.
The point remains, that the stocks of Antivenom at Zoos is there to protect those who work there. That is the Primary purpose. Their secondary purpose is to be available for other Zoos. Thirdly, they are available to the general public.
Best Regards JohnZ
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