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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by tigers9 on May 4, 2008
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My point was that playing god and preferential treatment is a dangerous slope, saying using antivenin on nitwit today might endanger the good herp keeper tomorrow if there is nothing left for him,…it is like saying we need to look down on hikers because they sometimes need rescuing and then they take rescuers and surgeons resources away from somebody else who got injured in a normal daily routing, like slipped on his stairs in bathtub, and now has to wait for his turn with rescuers and emergency rooms.
This is simplistic explanation what I was objecting to here.
I believe most people do not want o die or get maimed, and the few daredevils and idiot exotic owners, well, I believe eventually they will prove Darwin’s theory to be correct.
But for saving lives, we can not play god and be judgmental.
And obviously FL has enough accidents with exotics lately including monkey escapes from private reserve of that Lowry zoo guy, that makes you wonder how much the experience versus common sense play the role in animal related incidents.
My question was still not answered what doe sit take for non AZA person to be able to have exotic antivenom?
Z
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by Cro on May 4, 2008
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The exotic Antivenom System was set up years ago to protect folks who worked in Zoos, Museums, Research, etc. At that time, the only folks keeping exotic venomous snakes at home in private collections also worked at those institutions.
Now days there are thousands of folks accross the country who keep venomous snakes. For this very reason, the bringing together the various venomous keepers into a national organization is what is needed.
If that national organization also were to set up reginal Antivenom Banks, that would also be a great thing. Will this happen? Hard to say. There are some folks working on it.
The problem is that reptile and amphibian keepers tend to care only about their own niche. Turtle keepers rarely care about the lizard keepers, who rarely care about the dart frog keepers, who rarely care about the snake keepers, who rarely care about the venomous snake keepers, etc.....
Bringing herpert together into a strong cohesive national group is an almost impossible task.
But, back to the original topic. No one is playing God, as you say, as no one in AZA zoos is withholding Antivenom from being shipped to the nutcases in Idaho keeping Mambas when they get bit.
As far as "My question was still not answered what doe sit take for non AZA person to be able to have exotic antivenom?"
Well, it takes money, and filling out paperwork, and a doctors prescription, and time. The forms are available here on this site, and the topic has been discussed many times if you search the Experts Section for previous posts. But if you are serious enough about wanting to have a stock of Antivenom, you can get it. And you will find that others here who have done so, are more than willing to help someone out with instructions on the steps needed to be followed. If you wanted to keep a pet cobra, assuming it is legal where you live, you could purchase Antivenom for that cobra, and it would take you anywhere from 2 months to 6 months to get it. So, it would be wise to start the process before you buy your pet cobra.
That same 2 months to 6 months is what AZA Zoos have to go through to replace their supplies of Antivenom. That is why they are not all that happy when they have to send it out from their stock. Just being an AZA Zoo does not speed up the process by much. It could cut out some paperwork and time, but not a whole lot.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by tigers9 on May 4, 2008
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so the 'deal' between AZA and FDA, what does it do for them/AZA, that non AZA people don't get? Is it faster process or guaranteed not to get your request rejected?
Sorry had to get up early today so my brain is not functioning properly yet...
To be honest, the catching nets, poles, tongs and tranquilizer rifle I have, I hope I never have to use them, and I got that rifle mostly to help AC in emergency, my rifle is better than theirs,as we have at least one idiot owner of big cats in the county.
Z
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by Cro on May 4, 2008
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If it is set up correctly, there could be reginal Antivenin Banks, perhaps located at fire stations in various regions of the country.
All that is really required is a refrigerator for the Antivenoms, and people who are trained to know which type of Antivenom should be brought to a hospital or put onto a airplane flight. And they would have to keep up with the expiration dates of the stocks. One or two individuals at a fire station could easily learn this.
These folks are allready set up to respond quickly to an emergency. Much more than some poor old Zookeeper.
This would be similar to the set up they have in Florida with Venom 1, except on a smaller scale as to the varieties of Antivenom that they stock.
It would be way too costly to stock every Antivenom Bank with all of the needed Antivenoms, so this is where the Zoos could serve as a backup to what ever was not stocked at the AV Bank.
The advantage would be hopefully a cheaper cost of Antivenoms due to larger buying power. And perhaps a bit less paperwork and time involved in replacing stocks for zoos. Zoos are low budget outfits, and often do not have the money to keep stocks of Antivenoms for all of the animals they keep.
And National or Regional Antivenom Banks would perhaps have a better responce in getting Antivenom to where it is needed than what is in place at this time. They would be tied into the police / fire / ems from the start. And the AZA Zoos would serve as a backup, and not a primary source for exotic venomous snake Antivenoms.
That would be one of the major improvements that could be made. If the fire rescue folks allready had cobra Antivenom on hand, you would eliminate the several hours it is going to take to get someone in the middle of the night to unlock the zoo, and find the Antivenom, and arrange to get it to the airport.
That would be the primary advantage in setting up a system like that. For some reason, Hospitals are reluctant to stock even native snake Antivenoms in any quantity. Having a network of fire stations that each had a refrigerator for storing a supply of Antivenom could create a system that would work well. In the long run, it would save more lives when someone was bitten by an venomous snake.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by JoeCrotalid on May 12, 2008
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As usual the Media is going to put the slant they want on a story whether the facts are correct or not.
I have worked with the Miami-Dade team before on snakebite cases, and have mixed feelings not with their role in the care of snakebites, but with the way some of their personnel have come across. All in all they do a great job and provide a valuable service especially in FL. Other states are forced to go to local zoo's for antivenom which causes multiple issues including delays in locating the appropriate antivenom, transport of the antivenom, the zoo's ability to recoop and restore antivenom supplies to ensure their staff are protected which the reason a national antivenom data base is being worked on to help eliminate some of these problems.
As I said though my problem is not with the job they do but the attitude I have encountered with some in which they feel they are the only experts available to treat snakebites exotic or domestic species. Most of the team members I have encountered are great, but there are a couple. In fact, one even said that he should be contacted rather than Poison Control because Poison control does not know anything about snakebites. Well I would like to tell that individual that I work for Poison Control in FL, and I have been taking care of snakebites for over 15 years both with PC and in the Field/ER as an RN and Consultant to physicians providing assistance in snakebites.
With that said! I do appreciate the great job that the Venom Bank does, and hope to continue working closely with them on cases to ensure that victims do get appropriate snakebite treatment.
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by JoeCrotalid on May 12, 2008
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As usual the Media is going to put the slant they want on a story whether the facts are correct or not.
I have worked with the Miami-Dade team before on snakebite cases, and have mixed feelings not with their role in the care of snakebites, but with the way some of their personnel have come across. All in all they do a great job and provide a valuable service especially in FL. Other states are forced to go to local zoo's for antivenom which causes multiple issues including delays in locating the appropriate antivenom, transport of the antivenom, the zoo's ability to recoop and restore antivenom supplies to ensure their staff are protected which the reason a national antivenom data base is being worked on to help eliminate some of these problems.
As I said though my problem is not with the job they do but the attitude I have encountered with some in which they feel they are the only experts available to treat snakebites exotic or domestic species. Most of the team members I have encountered are great, but there are a couple. In fact, one even said that he should be contacted rather than Poison Control because Poison control does not know anything about snakebites. Well I would like to tell that individual that I work for Poison Control in FL, and I have been taking care of snakebites for over 15 years both with PC and in the Field/ER as an RN and Consultant to physicians providing assistance in snakebites.
With that said! I do appreciate the great job that the Venom Bank does, and hope to continue working closely with them on cases to ensure that victims do get appropriate snakebite treatment.
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by JoeCrotalid on May 12, 2008
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I did alittle research into the case through my contacts in the medical community, and the facts are of course incorrect in this case. The initial bite was reported by EMS as an Indian Specled Cobra (Naja naja) which then became a King Cobra, and the patient was given cobra antivenom. When correct identification was made it actually turned out to be a Speckled rattlesnake (C. mitchelli) in addition to coagulation abnormalities which indicated a crotalidae. The patient was appropriately given CroFab and responded immediately and has been subsequently discharged.
Once again the media muffs another case, and this demonstrates how important correct identification is in treating snakebites appropriately. The patient couldn't give any info because he crashed and was intubated. Sorry Guys! Can't reveal my sources, but that's the real scoop.
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by JoeCrotalid on May 12, 2008
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I did alittle research into the case through my contacts in the medical community, and the facts are of course incorrect in this case. The initial bite was reported by EMS as an Indian Specled Cobra (Naja naja) which then became a King Cobra, and the patient was given cobra antivenom. When correct identification was made it actually turned out to be a Speckled rattlesnake (C. mitchelli) in addition to coagulation abnormalities which indicated a crotalidae. The patient was appropriately given CroFab and responded immediately and has been subsequently discharged.
Once again the media muffs another case, and this demonstrates how important correct identification is in treating snakebites appropriately. The patient couldn't give any info because he crashed and was intubated. Sorry Guys! Can't reveal my sources, but that's the real scoop.
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by bootspur on August 7, 2011
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Personally, I believe IF these animals are to be owned by private citizens then they must first meet three criteria; 1st) Must pass a Psychiatric examine paid for by applicant. 2nd) Must pay a $25,000 bond to own all top predators like, Cobras, Mambas, Bushmasters, Fierce, Brown, Krait & any other drop nearly dead where you stand types of snake's. (most will forget all about owning one then, AND those who do pay up will know that they are paying in ADVANCE for a portion of THEIR TRIP to the emergency room with Venmon Response! 3rd) Must have snake milked 6 times per year with venom donated to an approved laboratory facility so that venom will be on hand to help save lives locally OR within the Continental U.S.
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RE: Venom Response Team Lt.: Florida Snakebite Rat
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by bootspur on August 7, 2011
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Are you serious?? You really are clueless. You said 3 times more deaths are caused by dogs than are caused by snakes..."
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You shouldn't have brought up dog stats in a conversation about snakes, 67% of Americans are DOG owners. That means OVER 200 million of us own one OR more k-9's. Can YOU imagine how many DEAD people there would be if there WERE 200 million snake owners in the United States!
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There isn't an exact percentage OR number of JUST SNAKE owners in the U.S., there is a category of Reptiles, to include Lizards, & Snakes of which there are about 5% of Americans who own one of AND so about 17 million people own a Lizard OR Snake. If I had to bet I'd bet there are MORE lizard owns than snake owners. At least I could hope!
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About 10 to 20 people die each year as a result of interaction with a SNAKE, and 20 to 30 people die each year from interaction with a dog. SO, I rest my case!
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