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RE: New Costa Rican Snake in need of Identifiction
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by tj on July 2, 2008
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And just when is that next time? Next April or May?
I'm gettin' antsy.
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RE: New Costa Rican Snake in need of Identifiction
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by Cro on July 2, 2008
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The ITIS database says that there are 3 valid sub-species of Crotalus simus (formerly durissus).
Those include Crotalus simus culminatus, Crotalus simus simus, and Crotalus simus tzabcan.
This was based on The Venomous Reptiles of the Western Hemisphere, vols. 1 & 2, by Campbell, Jonathan A., and William W. Lamar. 2004.
Then:
"Savage et al. (2005) revised the nomenclature of the Crotalus durissus complex by designating neotypes for Crotalus durissus and Crotalus simus, to fix the names of these two species as intended in Campbell & Lamar (2004) (see comments on Crotalinae 2004 page). A Surinamese specimen was selected as neotype of C. durissus, which means that the Guyanan coastal populations now bear the name Crotalus durissus durissus, whereas a Guatemalan specimen was selected as neotype of Crotalus simus, thus ensuring that that name is the oldest available name for the Central American populations of the C. durissus complex."
Later in 2005 Wolfgang Wuster changed that around a bit:
"In Central America, the taxa culminatus and tzabcan are found to represent highly disticnt lineages, and are regarded as separate evolutionary species, Crotalus culminatus and C. tzabcan, although more work is required to confirm this."
"Crotalus simus simus (sensu Campbell & Lamar, 2004; = Crotalus durissus durissus previously) was found to be polyphyletic, the Veracruz populations foriming the sister group of C. culminatus and the remaining populations forming the sister group of the South American populations."
http://biology.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/Updates/Crotalinae2005.htm
Veracruz, Mexico is several hundred miles from Costa Rica.
So, what does this all lead to ???
First, We can conclude that the data at the ITIS is several years out of date, and should not be relied upon for the most up to date classifications. There is always a time delay between scientific publications, and making the ITIS database.
Second, While Campbell and Lamar's book is great, it is 4 years old now, and allready out of date on some animal classifications.
Third, Solorzano's book Snakes of Costa Rica is also out of date, even though it is also 4 years old.
Fourth, This group of snakes is in great flux, and subject to change more, as more mDNA research is completed. Being polyphyletic, there is still a lot of confusion.
So, what kind of snake was found in Cost Rica ????
A Neotropical Rattlesnake !!!
Perhaps it can be called Crotalus simus for now, LOL.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: New Costa Rican Snake in need of Identifiction
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by 23bms on July 2, 2008
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Crotalus simus?
Crotalus simus???
What is the temporarily correct name for my C durissus terrificus?????
The Reptile Database hasn't caught up with this one yet.
This is what comes from handing out Gilbert mDNA Sets to every prospective PhD.
(I hope the sarcasm didn't offend TOO many people. We seem to be rather ... sensitive ... to such things on this site.)
(Sorry. In a rather bad mood tonight. Icky virus which my certified (in multiple states) medical genius wife can't diagnose. Physician, heal thyself? Yeah. Right.)
jrb
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RE: New Costa Rican Snake in need of Identifiction
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by Cro on July 2, 2008
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JRB, your Crotalus durissus terrificus would seem to be safe for the moment, although it is one of 9 recognized subspecies of durissus ! That is a very big group to maintain as subspecies.
I wonder how long those 9 subspecies will survive ? I bet there are folks who can't wait to run more mDNA on that group and elevate a few of them, and invalidate a few of the others.
Won't be long now until all the books will be listing most of the ratsnakes as Pituophis. Amazing !
As far as the Icky atomic grunge virus, get yourself a Silver Pulser from Sota Instruments:
http://www.sotainstruments.com/original/silverpulser/
Start making Collodial Silver Solution, and drink about 4 cups a day of the solution until you are better. It will work quickly, and you should expect a bit of a herxheimer reaction as the dead virus releases toxins that have to be flushed out.
Also, Olive Oil Extract is a great anti viral, but tasts pretty awfull.
Another one that works well is Grapefruit Seed Extract. About 20 drops in a glass of water four times a day will work. Also tasts awfull.
Any of the above will work much better than anything the doctors have to offer for viral infections.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: New Costa Rican Snake in need of Identifiction
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by MattHarris on July 2, 2008
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The C. simus from Costa Rica is C. simus simus. C. simus culminatus occurs further up the coast in Southern Mexico.
This USED to be C. d. durissus but when Campbell and Lamar revised everything durissus became simus, C. d. durissus became C. simus simus., C. d. culminatus because C. s. culminatus.
Wolfgang Wuster did a in depth study of the DNA of the 'durissus' complex, including some of the simus we imported from C.R. (Pajaros locale specimens).
MH
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RE: New Costa Rican Snake in need of Identifiction
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by Cro on July 2, 2008
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Matt, the statement that Wuster made in 2005 saying "In Central America, the taxa culminatus and tzabcan are found to represent highly disticnt lineages, and are regarded as separate evolutionary species, Crotalus culminatus and C. tzabcan, although more work is required to confirm this." would tend to indicate that he Elevated culminatus to species status at that time, and did the same for the tzabcan.
That would eliminate Crotulus simus culminatus from the picture, making it just Crotalus culminatus, and would also do away with Crotalus simus simus, turning it into just Crotalus simus.
At least, that was what he said in 2005, along with saying they complex needed more study.
Did he come back later and un-do the elevation to Species Status for culminatus, tzabcan, and simus at a later date ???
Actually, I found a new PDF by Wuster from 2006 that further supports that there is no Crotalus simus subspecies anymore, just Crotalus simus and Crotalus culminatus. See:
http://biology.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/Publications/2006_Quijada_C_durissus_CAHBulletin.pdf
Best Regards John Z
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RE: New Costa Rican Snake in need of Identifiction
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by 23bms on July 3, 2008
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Cro,
Interesting ideas but my wife was skeptical. I might add that when I got married I was unaware that if you are marrying a primary care provider in addition to a marriage certificate you get a complimentary membership in the Bug of the Month Club. If there's a next time, I'll read the fine print more carefully. It is amazing how frequently intimate moments devolve into waving from across the room. "Yes dear, I love you. Don't come near me."
jrb
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RE: New Costa Rican Snake in need of Identifiction
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by MattHarris on July 5, 2008
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John,
His statement that 'more work is needed' is just that...at that time, more studies were warranted. As with any studies, a single paper doesn't make taxonomy a 'law' but merely presents the results of one analysis...you either accept it, or you don't.
My point was, regardless of whether you accept subspecies or not, the rattlesnakes from Costa Rica are either the nominate subspecies C. s. simus or simply, C. simus, if the other two (tzabcan and culiminatus) are considered full species.
Matt
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RE: New Costa Rican Snake in need of Identifiction
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by Cro on July 7, 2008
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Matt, that is how peer review is supposed to work. Like you say, just publishing an article is only the first step.
Folks put out their ideas, and others get to question them. Wether folks will agree with Wuster on Crotalus simus, Crotalus culminatus, and Crotalus tzabcan still remains to be seen. Seems that a lot of his ideas eventually make it into the accepted definitions, but not always. Might be that Campbell and his researchers come back with something that challenges that grouping.
My main concern though is that we should be carefull about quoting the ITIS database, even though it is supposedly the standard, as much of the information on that database is many years out of date and awaiting updating. It is a constantly changing format, and should be used with caution. If you look at Elaphe on that database, you will find that the ratsnakes have not been updated since 2004.
There is no harm in stating that other researchers have new research that might change how things are listed on ITIS, in addition to stating what is currently listed on ITIS as the standard. That way folks will know what to look for concerning upcoming changes.
As far as the Costa Rica rattlesnake, it is part of the Crotalus simus complex. I liked it a lot better when it was just a Neotropical rattlesnake called durissus.
Best Regards John Z
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