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A question for timber keepers
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by agkistrodonkeeper on September 17, 2008
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Have any of you ever noticed your timber kinda flatten itself out while either under the lamp or just Layin there? I have noticed my timber Doin this alot. I have been keeping hots for about seven years just copperheads though. I have had my timber for about a month. I have worked with timbers in the past, but this is the first time I've kept one myself. He hasn't eaten for me since Ive had him, but I have seen him drink and he defecated a few times since I have had him.
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by LadyBloodRose on September 17, 2008
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how old is he/how big/temperatures?/what are you offering for food? an is he in a high traffic area?
i noticed my female cane will ocassionaly though she tends to flatten herself out more if i come around.
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by theemojohnm on September 17, 2008
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Anthony,
my newest timber is currently displaying the same behavior.
She WAs suspected to be a gravid female, but appears to have dropped some weight in the past month. I still expect some offspring however. She flattens her body when catching the early morning ray of the sun from the window across the room.
I assume this is probablly to make for more surface area to absorb sunlight. Timber seem very fond of the early morning sun in the Northern climates, as they would need to absorb a good deal of heat to be active enough for a days activity.
My new female, I suspect, also does this because she is SUPER FAT, and I can only assume its more comfortable for her to lay stretched out.
She too, has very little food interest. I have noticed Timbers sometimes refuse food in the week or so leading up to when they drop babies. I am hoping for some soon.
Actually, come to think of it.... What COLOR are the feces your snake is leaving you? This gravid female seems to leave me a VERY small ammount of brighter, almost yellow colored feces once or twice a week.
I spoke with someone once whpo said that his gravid females seemed to do this shortly before dropping their young.
I have not "produced" timber babies in the past entirely myself, so I would not know.
I have noticed the "flattening" behavior with a few of my timbers, even males, in the past though.
My only assumption is that for such a "meaty" species of snake (at least for the other species we have here in PA), they just need a little more surface area to contact the sunlight for warth, so that the have enough energy to carry out their day or early evening.
Think the ammount of sunlight needed to warm up a garter snake has got to be ALOT less than what would be needed to warm up and adult Timber Rattlesnake.
I certainly do not think this begavior is of any concern, if thats what you suspect.
Hope thats answers the question. LOL.. =)
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by agkistrodonkeeper on September 17, 2008
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The snake is about two foot give or take an inch or two. I'm guessing two to three years old??? I have been offering live mice for now as my long tongs broke on me and I haven't gotten a new pair yet. I just moved the timber out of an auarium into the cage I built the other day. The temps are around 85.
The color of the feces are white and yellow. The way I have it's cage set up isn't really as natural looking as my copperheads cages are. I am planning on making it more natural on my next day off though. Replacing the aspen with cypress mulch, adding more fake plants, a couple of natural hide spots, and replacing the landscaping bricks I have under the lamp with actual stones.
It kinda worried me a little bit about the whole flattening out thing but not so much anymore.
Thanks everyone for the replies, and any tips y'all can give would be greatly appreciated.
Anthony
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by agkistrodude on September 17, 2008
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The flattening out thing is nothing to worry about, my 3 adults do it too. So does my EDB sometimes. Marty
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by theemojohnm on September 17, 2008
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Anthony,
Perhaps the snake is TOO warm. 85 doesnt seem like too alarming of a temperature to me, but if the snake is a Northern Timber, rather than a "Canebrake" it may be feeling a little warm.
Are you experimenting with an temperature gradient in the enclosure? Is there a difference between a "ccol end" and "warm end" of the cage?
What methods are you using to heat the enclosure? A heat lamp may be making her feel a little too warm.
And the warmer temps seem to through most crotalus off feed.
Ussually, an undertank heating source place only at ONE end of the cage will allow the snake to find its own comfortable spot somewhere in the middle.
If it gets cold, it will move to the warmer side of the tank, if it gets hot vice versa.
Maybe as a hot end temp 85 would suffice, but I honestly think a lower ambient temperature would help some. You have to take into account that there are extremes aswell. That 85 degrees on an unussually hot day might turn into 90 quickly in the confines of an enclosure.
The northern timbers can tolerate some pretty "nippy" temps aswell.
Is this particular snake wild caught? Forgive me if it was already posted, I am just under the impression it is.
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by theemojohnm on September 17, 2008
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As stated, I second what Marty said.
I do not think it is of any health concern.
Off topic: I allmost failed to notice that you posted Marty. lol.. the agkistrodon usernames through me off.
Agkistrodon has got to be the most awesome genus of snake. Love em to death. LOL...
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by agkistrodonkeeper on September 17, 2008
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for right now I'm just using a rsgular 100 watt bulb and no uth. I have quite a few uth's, I've had them for a few years but I remember the package said that were for glass tanks only. Would they work on the melamine cage? When I get a day off I'm gonna do alot more with the temp setup. I've always used glass aquariums in the past. I'm currently in the process of switching over to melamine cages. The way I have my copperheads cages set up are with glass aquariums, a uth on one end with a 60 watt bulb, a hide on both the cool and warm end. The temps on the warm end usually stay around 85 give or take a few. Soon they will all be moved into melamine cages I'm in the process of building. I also need to get all new thermometers, mine are all approx. Six years old and I'm not 100 percent sure they are accurate. I'll post some pics of my timbers set up if anyone wants me to. What is the easiest way to post pics n this site?
Thanks,
Anthony
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by theemojohnm on September 17, 2008
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Anthony,
Actually, that is a good question. I'm not sure about using a heating pad or other under tank heating source with a material such as melamine. I'm not 100% sure. I know it can be done, but not sure what measures are taken to ensure the materials stability.
The best situation in your case probably, would just be to rely on the heat of your home to provide the ambient temps. If your room temperature is around 65-70 degrees or even a bit higher, that should suffice for a Northern Timber in my opinion.
A 100w bulb would depend on the size of the cage, but it should be placed if possible on one side of the enclosure on a "basking spot". If the animals gets too hot, it will move.
I dont think the snake being too hot is of too much concern in your case. But, sometimes I feel, keepers "pamper" snakes. We all know what that does to babies. Northern Timbers "rough it" to some extent when we think of reptiles being cold blooded, compared to other species.
And, out of most Northern American snakes, I seem to find that Timbers like to be a little "cooler".
If the heat lamp can be placed to create a "warm side" to the tank for digesting meals or additional heat, that is great, as long as the overall temperature of the enclosure is not affected too much.
Perhaps a lower wattage bulb? Or, even, one of the higher wattage floresent bulbs just for the sake of giving the snake some basking light, without giving off too much heat.
There are alot of people here that have kept Timbers alot longer and more extensively than me. These are only my thoughts on what has worked for me in the past and continues to work for me.
John Z (Cro) I'm sure will have posted by tomarrow. Very knowledgeable guy, that I'm sure can give you some sound advice. And, he has had a Timber rattler in his collection for over 35 years (if I'm not mistaken).
There are also alot of keepers here you know far more about caging materials than me. As all of my cages a custom built from wood, insulated with SureTape.
I do not see any real problems with the way you are keeping your timber now. The temperatures may play a role in the future, but dont seem like too much of an issue to me now.
Back to your origional question, as has been stated, many people have observed the "flatening" and I do not feel it is anything to be alarmed about.
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by Cro on September 17, 2008
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~John has offered some excellent advise.
I agree that the 85 degree temperature could be a problem for the whole cage, but would be ok for a basking spot, wether the heat source is from above with a spot type heat lamp, or from below.
As far as using the stick on under tank heaters, you might run into some problems with the cages you are building. Like you mentioned, they heaters are designed for use under aquariums.
Even though it is not recomended by the people who make those heaters, I do use the small ones inside of wooden cages, underneath a layer of bark chipps or litter, to provide a heat source in part of the cage. They can also be placed under a flat slate rock, and do a nice job of heating the rock to a good temperature.
The thing to remember, is that a Timber Rattlesnake in the wild this time of year, would be dealing with air temperatures in the high 70 degree range during the day, and possibly the high 50 degree range at night. During the day, it might find sun warmed rocks to bask on, and, especially if it were a gravid female, be able to raise the body temperature into the mid 80 degree range. In the evening, it would retreat under rocks, where the thermal storage of the rock would provide some heat for several hours, but by morning, the rock temperatures would be the same as the air temperatures.
Try keeping your Timbers at room temperature with a basking spot on one end of the cage that is warmer.
You mentioned you were trying to feed live mice. That might be a mistake. You might want to try frozen / thawed, or freshly killed mice. Those mice should not be white lab mice, they should be brown or black. If those do not work, get a bb gun and harvest a chipmunk. Timber Rattlesnakes will usually eat those.
Hope this helps.
Best Regards John Z
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