RE: A question for timber keepers
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by agkistrodonkeeper on September 17, 2008
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Thanks for all the great advice guys. The lamp is on one side of the cage. I cut a hole in the top and have a piece of expanded metal covering the hole from the inside. That's where the heat lamp sits.I'm also considering replacing the top piece of melamine, and then mounting a flourescent fixture on the inside to one side. I was also thinking of possibly placing one of my smaller uth's on the inside of the cage with possibly one or two or even three pieces of ceramic tile covering it to create a hot spot. Does this sound like it should work okay?
I also wanted to say that I have been coming here for a really long time and I am so glad that there is a place like this that anybody can come for advice from really friendly and Knowledgable people.
Thanks again
Anthony
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by theemojohnm on September 17, 2008
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Yeah John.
Funny, as I have plans to go out tomarrow and get some chipmunks. I would hate to "raid" a rabbits nest, but I have one of those in my yard too.
This female followed around a mouse for a little while, and as soon as she gets close enough to get a good scent from it, she retreats into a coil.
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by agkistrodude on September 18, 2008
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The cage I have my canebrakes in is constructed of 3/4 inch plywood.On the bottom is a piece of that thick liner that you buy for building koi ponds.(home depot or lowes) I put the substrate on top of that.But on one end I have a regular heating pad like you use on a sore back, under that liner.It has 3 settings, mine seem to prefer the medium setting.The liner keeps the snake from direct contact with the heater, and keeps the heater clean and dry.I'm not sure how melamine is effected by heat, but those pads don't get real hot, just nice and warm. Marty
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by LadyBloodRose on September 18, 2008
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everything actaly like they said sounds good, my canes have a hot side of 85 an a cooler gradent down to 75 an at night i have been letting them cool to 70-69 at times thye cna get alil lazy to an wont even bother live food, infact since i have had them they have only bothered 1 live prey item an after that everythig has been prekilled - f/t. Definately give pre killed or f/t a try ^_^. you don't have to hold it out with tongs just make sure your snakes awake an toss it close to him/her an leave him/her alone for a while. My female an male alterante an can either one take anywhere from 30min to 2-3 hours before they eat just to be stubborn when i am feeding everyone else.
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by FSB on September 18, 2008
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Coming in a little late to the game... sorry y'all, but my internet access is spotty at the moment.
Anyway, C. horridus have been my main passion for the past few years, and if the snake is wild-caught, it will probably not acccept domestic food such as white mice or rats. Timbers can also feel threatened by live food in captivity, ironically. I have one large male LTC that readily swallows a dead rat, but is terrified of anything alive. Its former owner told me the snake had once been bitten by a rodent.
Try anything wild-caught - deer mouse, young rabbit, small squirrel or as John Z suggests, chipmunk, but freeze it for a week, preferably two, to kill any possible parasites. Most of the time TRs will switch over easily to regular f/t lab stuff, but I do have one very stubborn male who has been in my collection for over three years and still accepts only rabbits or wild-caught mice and rats (he will eat young domestic rabbits, though).
Once acclimated, TRs make very satisfactory and easy-to-care for captives, but probably have the foulest-smelling defecations of any of our native snakes. One good thing- you will know the instant their cage needs to be cleaned!
I am sure that 85 is on the high side for these montane snakes... I usually find them when the ambient temperatures are on the cool side, and mine thrive at a median temp. of around 78 with a hot spot of only 80 - 82. During the hot weather, they tend to become more nocturnal, and I don't think they have much tolerance for high temperatures. A gravid female, if that's what you have, will need a warm spot to lay on, however, and would most likely be refusing food anyway. I think an overhead heat lamp, as one might use for tropical animals, is a bit excessive for timbers, but they do enjoy basking in natural sunlight coming through a window. I offer them a weekly opportunity to prowl a secure room (one at a time!), and they will most often end up basking on the windowsill. Kept at ambient temperatures, they will often abruptly stop feeding sometime in the fall, depending on where you live, and should be brumated for the winter months at temperatures ranging from 55-60. More detailed info about this is available elsewhere.
Also, and this is just my opinion, but I do think that snakes have more of an appreciation of their surroundings than some would think. Timbers should have a roomy cage and they definitely seem more comfortable if they have some native rocks to coil around and sit on. I have experimented with this a lot, and after keeping a snake for a while in a spartan cage, I would introduce a rock, and the snake would investigate it very thoroughly and then climb on top of it and coil up happily.
How naturalistic you want to be is up to you, of course, and while I think natural settings are ideal, especially for display purposes, they can be a lot of work for the average keeper who has a collection of any size. I strike for a balance between natural appearance, safety and cleanliness, which is of paramount importance. Prevention is the name of the game with venomous snakes, since you definitely want to avoid any conditions requiring hands-on treatment if possible. Soils, mulches and live plants look great, but the potential for developing or introducing bugs to your vivarium are greatly multiplied. Aspen is a great choice of bedding, especially the large-cut type (Kay-Tee), which is actually rather soft and leaf-like. It is low on dust, comfortable, attractive and absorbent, and any foreign matter can be spotted easily.
However, a nice rock or two, especially a cave made of one flat rock across two supports, will be greatly appreciated by your snake (I have often thought that these snakes could be more appropriately termed "eastern rock rattlers").
Finally, timbers are very fond of fresh, cool water (they're used to drinking from mountain streams), and it should be provided daily (especially after feeding) in a glass or porcelain bowl (avoid plastic water dishes). This is an essential. Dehydration can cause gout and a variety of other ailments, and stagnant water is a breeding ground for bacteria.
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by agkistrodude on September 18, 2008
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I have to agree on FSB's comment that they like to move around. Mine each have a 6'wide x 3ft deep x 3ft high cages, (that wasn't intentional, but I put one in one that I had, and it seemed to work out so well that I built 2 more.)they move around allot, have plenty of room to regulate temps,and allot of natural "rock and log shelves" to climb on if they want.I put them together when I'm trying to breed them.
Also in GA, squirrel season opens the middle of Aug. and runs thru Jan 1st. I'll put at least a 2 or 3 dozen in the freezer. They love em! Not bad in the crock pot w/dumplings and veggies either! Marty
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by theemojohnm on September 18, 2008
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Anthony,
Well, Fred's feeding advice is about as good as it gets. Ussually with some persistance, they will start to take F/T domestic rodents, but like Fred mentioned, some just seem to be very stubborn. I too have had a male in the past who only ate chipmunks. I didnt have this snake for very long, not due to this fact, it was a part of a trade I made some time back.
You gotta love horridus though, awesome snakes. The intial adjustments may be a little tricky, but as most, even here, agree, Timbers are exceptionally intelligent snakes.
And I can FURTHER back up what Fred and Marty mentioned about cage size. Timbers have some sort of "ellegance" (for lack of a better word about them).
They tend to be very reclusive and mysterious most of the time, but dont let that fool you. Often times Timbers in peoples collections reportedly sit coiled for long periods of time and never move much. I have never found any staement to be more untrue. IF given a larger space to roam and stretch, the snakes seem to do MUCH better, and gives the keeper more of a chance to observe some of the fascinating natural behaviors these snakes display, which to me, is the main reason for keeping captive specimens, to better our understanding of them.
I allways go with as natural a setup as possible with ALL my snakes. I dont mind the extra maintainence, as admittedly there is some. But it is well worth it in the end.
Because of this apparent "intellegance" compared to other snakes, adult timbers dont ever seem to be too alarmed of human company (of course within reason).
While my pissy female cottons lunge at the cage and will imediately stop what their doing to turn and face me if I walk into the snake room and catch them off guard, Timbers seem pretty sure of their size and seem to realize (after a brief time working with them) you mean them no harm. All the more reason to give them a larger, more natural environment to thrive in. You cant really compare the mountains to ANY captive, re-created enclosure no matter how hard one tries, so I feel, its a responsibility to try our best to do that and provide a natural, stimulating environment.
Humans CAN live in solitary confinement, but think of what it does to them mentally.
Ussually, when climbing about the cage, even timber startled upon your pressence, dont get too alarmed and ussually continue what their doing and, simply coil once their done and feel contempt with their "exploration" of the cage.
Awesome snakes!
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by agkistrodonkeeper on September 18, 2008
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Thanks for all the great suggestions and info guys. The cage I built for my timber is 2ft wide x 22 inches deep x 22 inches high. I originally wanted a sliding glass front, but I ended up with a single door that opens downward. The good thing about this cage is that I only have 20 bucks in it so far. All the melamine came from a computer desk someone gave me, and the barrel latches and hinges came from all the stuff left over from the hardware store my grandpa used to own. I originally was gonna use glass for the front, but I haven't mastered my glass cutting skills yet LOL so I ended up breaking that piece of glass. Now I have a piece of lexan. That's where the twenty bucks came in.
I'm gonna do alot more work on it as far as creating a more natural set up early next week.
The timber is alot more active than my copperheads. They spend most of the time in the hides unless they are out for a drink, eating, or defecating.
Thanks again for all the great advice and I'll keep y'all updated.
Anthony
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by Rob_Carmichael on September 19, 2008
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WHoa....a 100 watt bulb in a cage that small? I'm assuming you have the heat lamp attached to a quality thermostat but I think you'll have a very difficult time establishing a good thermal gradient in a cage that small. My recommendation is to get a larger cage with more floor space and pay closer attention to thermal gradients. Most rattlesnakes avoid temps over 85 (even desert species)....but they need to have that choice. That's just a quick observation.
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
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RE: A question for timber keepers
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by theemojohnm on September 19, 2008
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Yeah Rob,
I am VERY bad with mentally picturing measurements. LOL.
I actually just broke out the tape measure. I wonder how that cage is ventilated.. A 100w bulb only raises the ambient temp to 85? That REALLY seems small to me. Honestly, they make Rubbermaid or Sterilite bins larger than that, that with the proper ventilation would probably make a larger more roomy enclosure that the current setup.
Of course, you would run into even more heating problems with that (whether UTH, or heat lamp), but even still...
Anthony, the animal you said was 2 1/2 feet long?
The enclosure seems small to me. Even if trying to naturally landscape this enclosure, you would likely cut down on even more "roaming room".
I actually just started using the LEXAN poly-carbonate, and love it. Works fine in the Timbers cages, although my cottons seem to find a way to scratch it all up. Still, much better than the standard, brittle plexi.
Trust me when I say that I, after caring for my animals, am nearly totally broke most of the time. But, honestly, before putting more money into the existing cage, you may want to look ahead some and setup something bigger. Alot of the cages I have been building lately, are $16-$30 bookshelves or TV stand from WalMart. A roll of SureTape, or pond liner to waterproof them, and a $15-$30 piece of Lexan proves more than worth it in the end.
You should be ok for now, but it might be something to look into. Although, if you do not plan on keeping smaller animals in the current enclosure in the future, you may not want to put too much money into it, and setup something roomier for the future.
If you do decide to go with an alternate lighting system, let me know, as I have kept saltwater reef tanks for several years, and am FAR more knowledgeable about the properties of light and natural lighting than I am venomous snakes.
I do not buy ANY of the commercial reptile bulbs. Instead, go to the hardware store, or WalMart, and look for florescent bulk within or close to the correct spectrum natural sunlight would be.
I also have MANY techniques for "cutting corners" on price so to speak, without sacrificing the animals well being, when building cages.
Take Care.
~John.
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