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RE: What is our future
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by pictigaster1 on January 14, 2010
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Thanks guys ,to me this is a sad state of affairs .So many stupid dealers and keepers.Chris years ago I was going to get dwarf crocs from ft worth zoo but in there wisdom they decided to start distroying the eggs and to deny any public dealings.It is sad to see what happens in zoos.I know of a zoo who euthinized snow leperd cubs as they were inbred.These could of been steralized and donated for display but killed instead.This practice goes on more than the public knows.The Sandiago zoo begged a friend of mine for a fossa male and promised him female offspring.He decided to do the deal and when the cubs were born laughed in his face and denied there deal stateing he was a private breeder and did not qualify for the cubs.They lied and stole in my and his opinion.At one time many zoos and private breeders had good strong working relationships but those days are long gone.Some zoos do still deal with some well known breeders but not like it was at one time.Private breeders are responsible for many firsts as well as methods that were never thought of before.To me one of the main problems is when the big money came in to the hobby.Then so many worthless pieces of sh## started importing and selling to any fool with money.Makeing money for your hard work is not wrong but selling king cobras to 17 year old keepers or to the guy who wants to show his tame deathadder on u tube by letting it hang on his neck These guys have in fact have put a bullet in our heart.I know some good people who breed and keep venomous reptiles and I know some who should never be allowed to have a garter and they are all posting on this board.I will not name names tho I should.Most of you know who the idiots are anyway .A person should be allowed to make money from there offspring ,in this hobby who you sell to can make or break us.I love Randals show it is the only one I attend .There are good people there some top notch breeders selling there lifes blood.This should never end.I also know that for the most part Randal works his ass off makeing sure all is going well at his shows.He never stops to rest constantly monitoring all the vendors and buyers.He never sits still for a moment.I can not say for other shows I have not been there.I would love to see these shows continue so we must police ourselves as well.I do hope for our future.I do not want to have to get one of those damn decoder rings.I just hope most of us realize that we are a much easyer target than any python ban.It looks like those people that I asked to post on this see the darkness as much as I do.USARK Is the only strong force we have now it would seem.20 years ago no one noticed us at all we were just the crazy dudes,and chicks who kept snakes.As of now we are viewed as something else that most of us do not understand.I still believe we have a fighting chance.If AZA and other powerful lobbyests like animal planet keep the hate alive then our chances become slimmer each year.Sorry guys I have been in the hospital and very bored so I seem to not be able to shut up LATER.
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RE: What is our future
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by MikeB on January 15, 2010
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I think Rob Carmichael has hit on a very workable way to deal with this situation in his citation of what the falconers did -- approach STATE wildlife agencies and STATE legislators to propose laws and regulations that would in effect license keepers/breeders of venomous reptiles, including training requirements, housing security, etc. This would of course impose one burden, the need to pass tests and maintain adequate facilities, but it would also cull out some of the marginal keepers who tend to show up in those "ten deadly snakes found in garbage cans in apartment" stories. I says state officials because given the current lliberal makeup of Congress and the administration in DC, they would not be as amenable to this reasonable approach. A good analogy might be radioactive material: there are fairly stringent rules and laws for the storage and transport of plutonium or radioactive waste, which means that whose truly qualified to handle it can do so, while amateurs (in the negative sense of that word, meaning not competent) cannot.
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RE: What is our future
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by AquaHerp on January 15, 2010
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See, you are making my case for me. Every time someone mentions bans or legislation, some folks react by insulting and creating adversaries. You are your own worst enemy!
With due respect, I highly doubt that San Diego Zoo stole cats from anyone. If you know anything about zoos you would know how things operate. There is a standard written agreement before any animals are transferred. The institution cannot promise a "female". The best that can be done is an agreement on offspring division. If you're friend truly had any type of agreement it would have been in writing and would stand up in any court. Period.
Zoos do not euthanize baby animals because they are "inbred". Inbreeding is controlled through contraceptive implants especially on species like Snow Leopards. Zoos may destroy eggs from a species when the genetic lineage is not certain. This is sound conservation on all levels.
AZA is becoming more and more opposed to exotic pets. When the exotic sector does nothing but fabricate stories, call names and openly attack them every time they want to post something clever, why wouldn't they? I have my own collection of exotics, but I have to tell you, it really gets old.
Stick with facts, not hearsay. Target your energy in the right direction. Be credible. Or, lose.
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RE: What is our future
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by pictigaster1 on January 15, 2010
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Well Doug Every word is the truth.He in fact did not get the deal in a contract .I also just found out he sold them the male not gave ,my bad.But they did refuse to honor there word on a female offspring.You are right I will leave this alone it is not part of what we are trying to achieve .The rest I will tell you about in person next time I see you.I know not all AZA is against us .I do know that some support us as you did when you were a aza curator .The facts are the damage has been done and can we change the course ahead.Rob has a great Idea.All I know is that if something is not done soon.We will go the way of the dodo.
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RE: What is our future
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by earthguy on January 15, 2010
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"The AZA is against us"
The AZA is an organization made up of individuals. The official stance may be against private keeping of exotic animals, but there are reasonable (and unreasonable ) people in ANY oranization. The trick is finding the reasonable ones to work with. I, for one, am all in favor of well thought out, enforceable legislation. It would help us more than hurt our hobby IF we use logic rather than emotion. You have to pass a test before you can drive...and I see no reason you can't apply that same principle to keeping venomous reptiles.
Plus the line at the Department of Venomous Reptiles is BOUND to be shorter than the one at DMV :)
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RE: What is our future
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by Cro on January 15, 2010
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What this really comes to, is that the government of this country would love to turn it into a "nanny state," like has been seen in the UK and elsewhere.
And, this is in motion. Has anyone besides myself noticed all of the cameras that have suddenly appeared attached to signs along roads all over the country ?
One has to assume that those cameras are being used for many other things, even if folks are being told they are only there to keep an eye on traffic and help traffic flow.
As far as out rights to keep animals, well, in my opinion, we will never become a strong force, as the turtle keepers, the gecko keepers, the frog keepers, etc, do not give a wit about the large constrictor keepers, or, the venomous keepers, or the harmless snake keepers, etc. We are disjointed, and will never come together, as our own little niche is of no concern to the others. The only strong force, is the true Herpetologists, who have a appreciation of all things creepy and crawly.
Rob mentions apathetic folks and disjointed folks who are reptile keepers. And he is right about that.
However, I do not agree with him that doing what the falconers did will work for us. After all, they are a tiny bunch of folks. And, even worse, they are dealing with animals that were outlawed from private keeping, and came under Federal Law. While it is true that they managed to set up a mentoring system to get a Federal Permit, (not much different than an Indigo Snake Permit), it is still only a tiny group of "privileged" folks who can own these animals outside of institutions like zoos, etc. And, even though those folks might hold "private" licenses, most of them are associated with a zoo, museum, or, other wildlife business.
I do think that the system set up in Florida might be a good venomous keeper model for other states. However, I would like to see it "stair stepped" so that after 500 hours, someone could keep "beginner" venomous snakes, and then at 1000 hours, "advanced" snakes could be added, and, perhaps even more hours needed for those wanting to keep mambas, taipans, etc.
Being proactive is good. We should help create laws. If we do not create them, the government folks will create them for us.
As Doug said, eventually all states will have venomous snake laws. It is up to us to see to it that those laws have built in opportunities for qualified folks to still keep venomous snakes in a proven safe way, and by proven safe keepers.
Best Regards
John Z
In Georgia, I have met 5 licensed falconers, but know hundreds of venomous snake keepers.
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RE: What is our future
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by AquaHerp on January 15, 2010
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Plus the line at the Department of Venomous Reptiles is BOUND to be shorter than the one at DMV
LOL...and less frightening!
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RE: What is our future
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by pictigaster1 on January 15, 2010
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John our town has even been placeing cameras in rural allys for what reason I can not imagine.But they brag every few weeks on how they busted a burguler or drug dealer from this.Cameras were voted out of our stop lights and some were removed .If you look around tho you will see them mooved to power poles and billboards.My son got on the internet and sent me a satalite picture of me working on my harley in my drive way.You could see the screwdriver in my hand.I was blown away,that was from space.All I could say is wow!!!!!!
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RE: What is our future
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by FSB on January 15, 2010
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We could start claiming that we keep snakes for religious purposes and seek protection under the First Ammendment. We could say that our interpretation of the "take up serpents" passage in the gospel of Mark is in the same sense as taking up guitar, or taking up golf... Crazier things have stood up in court.
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