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RE: zoo folks...thoughts on a community venomous e
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by AquaHerp on December 25, 2010
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Awesome Rob.
Will you be at the garter snake meeting next month? I am putting together the powerpoint now for our part. Looks like we can piggyback on another grant we have and make this project even bigger!That is, once I write the grant addition. Oddly enough, I like grant writing.
DH
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RE: zoo folks...thoughts on a community venomous e
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by Rob_Carmichael on December 25, 2010
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Hey Doug,
Looks like I won't be able to go this time due to budget cuts but I do want to stay involved; particularly with our eastern garter study starting this coming spring. Wish I could go but maybe next time.
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RE: zoo folks...thoughts on a community venomous e
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by Cro on December 25, 2010
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Sounds like it could be an interesting mixed exhibit, if black rat snakes, copperheads, and timber rattlesnakes were used, assuming that we are talking about "mountain" timbers, which will climb up on the rockwork. Adding a eastern milk snake would make the whole thing too "busy," and the cottonmouth would be a poor choice.
I can easily see a eastern milk snake / copperhead mixed exhibit, in a smaller cage, with just those two represented.
Since Rob mentioned "southern" Illinois, it could be that what he is calling timber rattlesnakes are the lowland form, formerly known as canebrake rattlesnakes. If that is the case, they would be a poor choice for an exhibit with rockwork that looks like mountains. Those would be better exhibited in something that looks like a river floodplain, and in a case like that, something like a mixed exhibit with a large rattlesnake and a cottonmouth just might work out, although I would limit it to only two or three animals, and would use a somewhat smaller cage.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: zoo folks...thoughts on a community venomous e
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by Rob_Carmichael on December 26, 2010
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John, the southern Illinois population is an interesting group as this area shows a lot of overlap between northern and southern populations (not just timbers but a number of other species such as black/blue racers, speckled kings, etc). The Timbers in Shawnee are indeed found in lowland areas, however, they are also found in higher elevations; particularly in the many rocky/hilly terrain that predominates this area. I have found them in the higher elevations in Pine Hills; particularly large south facing rocky boulders. So far, I have found our captive timbers utilizing the rocky ledges in their new exhibit which is exactly what I was hoping for. The population of timbers in downstate Illinois have very similar characteristics to the population that is found in the NW corner which is substantially north of the southern population. I think the downstate Timbers show more similarity to the northern form than the "canebrake" (in looks, behavior, etc.).
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RE: zoo folks...thoughts on a community venomous e
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by Time on December 26, 2010
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Keeping multiple species together can be a recipe for disaster for most keepers. Especially if they do not have a lot of experience.
Having been to Rob's facility several times along with meeting his competent staff members, I feel Rob can pull this off. He has the knowledge, experience, and time to do this safely. He can also recognize if it doesn't work out before disaster falls. Keep in mind, all of these species occur in the same locale and habitat.
And let's not forget the title of this thread...he did ask for thoughts on the issue from experienced keepers.
Having herped Southern Illinois since the early 70's my observations/opinions of the Timbers there are that they resemble the southern canebrake morphs. I've never seen what I would consider a northern Timber morph but a couple other herper friends have said they have only seen Timber morphs. Either way, these rattlesnakes are found both in the lowlands/floodplains areas and up in the rocky limestone bluffs overlooking Pine Hills.
The Cameron Park Zoo in Waco has a southwest exhibit comprised of a large rock wall with cleverly hidden glass dividers separating the gilas from the rattlesnakes and rat snakes that are all using the common rock wall exhibit. It's probably too late to incorporate this into your exhibit but it's an idea. Another possibility is to set an aquarium housing the cottonmouth into the enclosure to isolate the snake from coming into contact with the others. Have a sign accompany the enclosure explaining why the snake is separated. Or use a sign on the exhibit to point them to the cottonmouth exhibit explaining why it's not included in the display. The signage and separation can also assist in dispelling cottonmouth myths. myths
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RE: zoo folks...thoughts on a community venomous e
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by Rob_Carmichael on December 26, 2010
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Good ideas Tim! The timbers by themself look pretty great but I'm going to add the Black Rat first and see how that goes and perhaps a well displayed copperhead in a separate cage might be pretty cool. I will know within a month or two if this will work from a daily managaement standpoint. Timbers are very placid animals in captivity so they are good subjects for this type of project. Funny you mentioned your observations about the timbers you have found in shawnee to be more canebrake-like and others describe more of the northern clan. We have two that have come from IL (one came from IDNR and another from a college who has had this animal for many years)....to me, they look far more northern but I looked at a few of my pics of timbers I've found in Shawnee and did see one that looked much more canebrake-like than the others I have found. I'm now curious if populations differ within this expansive ecosystem due to the amount of natural hybridizing that takes place here. I'm going to talk to Scott Ballard and get his take as he knows these populations better than anyone I know.
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RE: zoo folks...thoughts on a community venomous e
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by lanceheads on December 26, 2010
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At my Zoo, I exhibit Eastern Indigoes with Eastern Diamondbacks in one large exhibit and in another large exhibit, I house Gopher snakes with Gila's. I have had a problem at all with them.
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RE: zoo folks...thoughts on a community venomous e
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by LarryDFishel on December 26, 2010
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I have very little experience with multiple species in one enclosure. I'm not against it, I just generally keep only one SPECIMEN per enclosure because it makes my like easier (especially with venomous).
However...I read a study (in "The Vipers" IIRC) of the stomach contents of wild cottonmouths, and among all the odd and unexpected (to me) things they found were a surprising number of snakes, including other cottonmouths.
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