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Are Venomoid Keepers Trolls ?
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by fbergman31 on January 6, 2011
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Again, they closed the venomoid disscussion forum prematurally before any one could respond because I supposebly was "name calling." However, I find this interesting since buzztail refered to me as a, "troublesome troll" in his opening comment before I said anything. Then all of his friends joined in in calling me a troll. Isn't that name calling ? Why start calling names and then close the thread prematurally AGAIN when people call you names back ? Perhaps next time you start a thread you shouldn't include slander in your opening comment and call the people with different opinions trolls, that might help, especially since there are plenty of pro venomoid keepers on this site. Here is the response I posted to threesome AGAIN, since they tried to edit the pro venomoid reteric AGAIN:
Lol, I do not know what you are laughing given the fact that you made a comment with absolutely zero substance in it. People are laughing at me because I cited Hosers work ? That's funny since the reptile medicine and surgery textbook backs up Hosers work in that it verifies all of his claims. I also stated that the best source of scholarly work was the reptile medicine and surgery text book. I personally like the way Hoser puts things and I find it funny the way he shows how you fools are liars so thats the only reason why I find it the best but to reiterate, the best scholarly work is the reptile medicine and surgery text book.
I also find it very impressive that you can state, "You don't seem to know nearly as much as you think you do, in your head.. ". Really said a mouth full there how am I going to digest all that information... If you think I don't know as much as I think I do in my head then please, why don't you explain to all of us what exactly is wrong with any of Hoser statements, or better yet, explain what was wrong with any of the statements Tommy Blake made regarding the procedure in the last argument. Even better, why don't you go to the websites I listed, since I listed 4, and not just Hosers, find their facts on venomoids, and explain what was wrong with any of the claims made on these sites ?
Are you claiming that the venom glands grow back ? Are you claiming the snakes need their venom to digest meals ? What substance are your brining to the table ? We have brought substance, that you can't rebuke, you just change the subject and start ranting about your feelings, you haven't addressed any of the serious claims we have. So please, if I am so ignorant and Hoser is a mad man I give you the green light to elaborate on why the procedure is detrimental from a scientific stand point.
On top of the actual facts I have already stated please also explain to me why so many people own venomoids and none of them report problems with the snakes ? They all act, eat, digest, and seem just fine. Including my snake. So if this procedure is so bad why aren't more people coming out and say, "Hey my snake died." You really think I would pay for a $500.00 procedure, on a $700.00 snake, if I really thought my animal was going to get sick, be injured, or die ? I mean, I love my snake don't get me wrong, but from an economic point of view, do you really think I would risk my investment like that ? I am Jewish, trust me, I know what I am talking about(lol). That sounded pretty good I think I am going to state it again: You really think I would pay for a $500.00 procedure on a $700.00 snake, if I really thought my animal was going to get sick, be injured, or die ?
So on top of the fact that the procedure is absolutely harmless to the snake, unless you can prove otherwise, I am going to state 6 benefits of owning a venomoid:
* Again, I know this is hard for you to wrap you head around since you are an ignorant weirdo but just try to comprehend exactly what it is that I am saying.
1) It is safer for the public if you own a venomoid. Accidents happen even to the best snake handlers and if a snake got out and bit the little girl next door and killed her the blood would be on your hands since you could have prevented it by getting a simple surgery done to your animal. This fact should be taken into special consideration since the reptile industry is booming and ANYONE can go to a reptile show and get a venomous snake. It's not just about YOU, it's about other people, and the reptile industry, as well. I know it might be hard for you to wrap your little reptilian brain around that but we with mammalian minds seem to understand this just fine.
2) The reptile industry is really only just beginning to blossom and is fragile at this point; do you really think it is intelligent to too encourage the sale of only venomous snakes when venomoids are more in demand and would reduce the number of bites ? Every time a person goes to the hospital with a snake bite (and even the best get bit) it gives the enemies of the reptile industry an excuse to outlaw our animals. And again, since any one can go to a reptile show and buy venomous snakes wouldn't it be more intelligent to sell more venomoids, especially at this point in our industries development. To reiterate, it's not just about you and your feelings, again, try to wrap your little lizard brain around this concept, and think about things besides yourself like others, and the reptile industry in general.
3) You can actually hold your animal. Yes! I know it's an amazing concept, not squeezing the snakes head off every time you need to change its water but actually domesticating him and picking him up gently. Wow, what cruelty, teaching the snake to tolerate humans and bonding with it instead of just trying to make its eyes pop out every time you grab it. Crazy !
4) Venomoids can be used in movies ( I think venomoid Inc. did a snake for kill bill) and shows and are easier to work with. I know Clem from Britain used a venomoid to originally test his venom defender gloves. I will post the video as soon as I find the link. I also know a guy who was trying to cross a cobra with a python and didn't want the snake to kill the python so he got it venomoided. The devenomization procedure can also be used to help snakes who's glands are infected. JUST LIKE WHEN A PERSON GETS THEIR TONSELS TAKEN OUT. Venomoids may also be a good way to keep scientist safe who need to work with something like a rattle snake but don't need a hot one. Venomoids are also a cool way to experience venomous snakes up close and personal which can be especially useful when educating the public about them and showing the public that they are not evil movie monsters that hunt humans every time there is a full moon. I regular person might think "wow, if that guy can hold a cobra then maybe snakes aren't that bad and we shouldn't ban corn snakes from pets shops."
5) Venomoids expand the industry ,safely, to people who would not normally buy a hot snake and thus helps the reptile industry grow which generate jobs and money.
6) It is safer for you as anyone can make a mistake. Wow, caring about yourself, another one of those crazy ideas from the pro venomoid people. Ehhhh when will they go away.
Next, ". I think Nicole was right; you only want someone to agree with you, that you're 'so bright', 'better', 'smater' (THE WORD IS ACTUALLY SPELLED SMARTER....LOL), etc (which IS QUITE the delusion)." I don't want someone to agree with me with, although allot of people do agree with me, I just enjoy exposing you clowns for the liars you are and spreading helpful information to people who want to make responsible decisions. Someone needs to come on this site and clean out all the pseudo science and delusions that are being posted, and if I don't, then no one will (mostly because they just don't care and are going to do what they want anyway). But still, I am kind of like an intellectual Jewish batman or superman cleaning up Gotham from all the ignorant and delusional liars.
Finally, " Once more, this site is NOT the place for it." Really ? If this site is not the site for it then how come so many people post venomoids in the classifieds section ? Do you own the site ? Why do you decide who gets to come to the site ? What if people don't want intolerant clowns like you on the site ? I know plenty of pro venomoid people on the site. More than you think may actually be on.
Please if you respond don't just ramble about your ignorant feelings try bringing some substance this time I am laughing so hard I am getting tears on my key board. Are you going to pay for a new one ? I think not you can't even afford a proper education. Why don't you go argue that drunk drives shouldn't get arrested because people shouldn't be persecuted for acting as they would naturally. I mean I get it. All those pedestrians should have just seen the car coming. Right ?
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RE: Are Venomoid Keepers Trolls ?
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by theemojohnm on January 6, 2011
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This is now officially spam..
Karl, John, can we get rid of this bastard already..?
This has gone more than far enough. We have nearly a page full of threads, all reiterating the same garbage.
Forgive me, but this is a senseless battle, and it's growing old. You can’t argue with the senseless.
Tommy, take this to a site where someone cares..
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RE: Are Venomoid Keepers Trolls ?
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by fbergman31 on January 6, 2011
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No substance again theemojohnm ? You just wan't to close down the thread and hope the problem will go away ? Can't rebuke what I say ? Ok, good, close it down, at least I have the personal satisfaction of knowing you were a whack job who doesn't know what he is talking about. We are intellectually justified and you have nothing. Go explain your little repressive feelings to a therapist.
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RE: Are Venomoid Keepers Trolls ?
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by CanadianSnakeMan on January 6, 2011
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Since I know how much heated debate and immature name-calling is generated from this topic, I will attempt to be as professional as I can.
In response to your 6 advantages to venomoid keeping, I have this to say:
1: Venomoid keeping gives the illusion of safety to the public. You asked a question earlier whether it was suggested that venom glands grow back. The answer is yes, they can and have been known to. Ductectomy and duct ligation surgeries and full gland removal are not a guarantee that the duct or portions of the gland won't grow back and re-route itself to the fang. Also, let's not forget the ability for snakes to breed. What would happen if a pair of unsexed venomoid snakes got into the hands of an inexperienced keeper with a false sense of security? what if that pair were male and female? When venomoid snakes breed, do they make venomoid babies? Also, some snakes have been documented as being parthenogenetic, not even needing a partner to reproduce. How 'safe for the public' would it be if some inexperienced handler's venomoid sawscaled viper popped out a clutch? As for your point of a snake escaping and biting a neighbour, all I have to say is that the keeper would be much less likely to secure the snake properly if it was venomoid.
2: The reptile industry already has enough problems without the potnetial animal rights issues of venomoiding snakes for sale as pets. The problems you're citing will only be resolved by comprehensive legislation and effective monitoring - not by venomoiding.
3. The ability to 'hold your animal' has no bearing with serious venomous keepers. It is a completely self-serving act to put an animal through the stress of surgery to remove its main defensive and prey-catching implements for the mere ability to 'pet your snake'. Such comments speak to your lack of respect for these creatures and your selfish ego.
4. I don't even know wehere you're going with this point... OK, venomoids can be used in movies. So what? As for the testing of the venom defender gloves, that could jsut as easily have been done with a venomous snake and a dummy hand.
So you know a guy who'se trying to cross a cobra with a pyhton eh? That sounds like the iguana that I crossed with a Komodo Dragon last year... please do let us know how that one works out! Excuse the sarcasm but that's just funny... and it speaks to your knowledge of reptiles in general.
"The devenomization procedure can also be used to help snakes who's glands are infected. JUST LIKE WHEN A PERSON GETS THEIR TONSELS TAKEN OUT." OK, so if your snake gets an infected gland, THEN go for the surgery, but only of the infected gland.
"Venomoids are also a cool way to experience venomous snakes up close and personal which can be especially useful when educating the public about them and showing the public that they are not evil movie monsters that hunt humans every time there is a full moon." You can do the same thing with a python or a cornsnake. Anyone who holds the view that all snakes are evil doesn't need a venomoid King Cobra to be educated.
5: See point #1. Inexperienced handlers should NEVER purchase a venomous snake regardless of whether it has been venomoided or not. It provides a false sense of security and teaches lazy and complacent handling techniques which are detremental if the keeper decides to move up to a fully venomous snake.
6: See point #1... and point #3. Venomous keepers care about themselves as much as anyone else. The main difference between you and us is that we also care about and revere our snakes' natural abilities enough not to alter them in any way. That's why we use tools and safe handling and storage techniques... because we're not suicidal.
Further, It's pretty hypocritical of you to ridicule someone for a typo when your post was rife with spelling mistakes (I.E. tonsels = tonsils, scientist = scientists, allot = a lot... I could go on).
I do however believe part of your claim to be a sort of Jewish intellectual Batman or Superman... I have no doubt that you're Jewish.
you do not prove your point any further by making statements about people being 'lizard brained' or 'anti intellectual' or a 'liar'. An opinion and the basis behind it does not make someone appear 'reptile brained', but the ignorance of their opinions and subsequent name-calling certainly does. You say you value intelligent discussion, so practice what you preach and dispense with the arrogant and inane attitude that you carry with you on these discussion boards.
People here are not receptive to your ideas for a variety of reasons and it does not make them stupid to have a different opinion than yours. If you want to change people's minds, you're in the wrong place.
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RE: Are Venomoid Keepers Trolls ?
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by theemojohnm on January 6, 2011
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LOL! Knew that was coming!
You are good for a laugh, especially when you go on your 'substance' and 'intellectual' rants.
Again, these proceedures, and venom's complete role in captive snakes is far from being understood.
Why is it that many (most) vets in the US refuse to do this surgery? Why is it a banned practice in the UK, and in several parts of Europe?
The simple reason is that 1). It IS a painful, bloody procedure initially. (Ever have wisdom teeth pulled? Ever have a root canal? Now, try that without pain medication. Just because reptiles do not display as much emotion as mammals, does not mean that they do not experience the sensation of pain).
^ That is of course, assuming that you do ‘care’ about the well-being of your animals, like you claim, which I have a hard time believing.
2). VENOM’S AID IN DIGESTION is not yet fully understood. That is a known unknown. There have been several cases in which venomous snakes (mainly viperids, make sense?) have died prematurely, that appeared to not be fully or properly digesting their food. The same enzymes that cause the swelling associated with viper and pit viper bites (namely the M12B peptidases) are believed to play a role in pre-digestion. I cite Dr. Bryan Fry (recognize that name?):
“The same enzymes that cause the swelling in snake bites are the enzymes that may be involved in pre-digestion, specifically the M12B peptidases. These toxins are actually amongst the ancestral toxins that were present in the venom of the very first venomous snake and consequently widespread throughout the venomous snakes.”
3). Your credibility is nothing, to anyone.. When you become qualified and can support the things that you keep reiterating, I’d love to hear it. Until then, it means nothing.
Maybe we should ask Tannith (Ms.TT) to come by (assuming she even would engage in yet another one of these senseless debates). She’s certainly qualified in the field of veterinary medicine. Tommy, I don’t think you’re ready to hear the facts from someone qualified. Would surely be a huge downpour on your parade.
Give it a rest buddy, you lose..
You’re not convincing or converting anyone.
For the final time, go take this garbage to a pro-venomoid site. You even listed a discussion forum! I guess that takes the enjoyment out of it for you though, huh..? As those folks will agree with you; nobody to argue with. Seriously talk to someone, it’ll be good for you.
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RE: Are Venomoid Keepers Trolls ?
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by Buzztail1 on January 6, 2011
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No need for further responses in this thread.
Warning was given and not heeded.
Action was taken, as promised.
R/
Karl
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RE: Are Venomoid Keepers Trolls ?
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by CanadianSnakeMan on January 6, 2011
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It's good at least to see some lively discussion on this forum... even if it is stimulated by trolls. I thought this forum was dying down, but it's amazing how many people will respond so fervently when their beliefs are challenged.
John: I like the way you think!
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RE: Are Venomoid Keepers Trolls ?
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by theemojohnm on January 6, 2011
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Agreed, Luke! And I've said the same; at least we have some active discussion on this board again!
Now that we've got everyone together, lets proceed with more VENOMOUS snake discussion, and forget this nonsense!
We just started getting a few other cool topics too, right before this garbage returned.
Thank you, Karl !
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RE: Are Venomoid Keepers Trolls ?
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by varivenom on January 6, 2011
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Some people just don't know when to hold their tounge! I guess he just has a hard time understanding the concept of appreciation for your animals as well as respecting them as perfect the way they are. To me calling the butchering of an animals defense mech. for your personal benefits is like saying castration is an acceptable form of birthcontrol.
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RE: Are Venomoid Keepers Trolls ?
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by nietzsche on January 6, 2011
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Hi,
I will preface this post by stating that I have nothing against you personally, and don't care what you choose to keep based on the dictates of your own conscious. My remarks will address the issue of Ray Hoser's publications only. I don't know what scientific entities are making use of his published works, but if this is the case, then there is a lot of "Bad Science" being done. I consider Hoser to be a poor scientist for the following reasons: 1) He makes references to data in order to substantiate his claims, then does not cite his sources. If a paper was submitted by a student in this manner, it would receive a failing grade from any college or university in the free world, and rightly so. This shows poor preparation or research, as well as preventing anyone who choose to check facts for themselves from doing so. For examples of this, please see Hoser's " A reclassification of the Rattlesnakes: species formerly exclusively referred to the Genera Crotalus and Sistrurus" Australasian Journal of Herpetology 6 (2009): 1-21, 2) He makes ad hominem attacks against other scientists in scientific papers. This is poor reasoning, since the paper is scientific, and any objections should be scientific in content. For examples of this please see Hoser's " A reclassification of the Rattlesnakes: species formerly exclusively referred to the Genera Crotalus and Sistrurus" Australasian Journal of Herpetology 6 (2009): 1-21. Any scientist that uses both poor reasoning and poor research techniques, should not be seen as any type of legitimate authority. If you cite him, few will take you seriously, and for good reason.
Respectfully,
--
Kelly
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