RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by Chance on January 9, 2004
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Anonymous - Like I tried to explain to you in my reply, different people feel comfortable handling different things. I grew up catching various kingsnakes, black racers, watersnakes, and ratsnakes around here. I learned to handle them without getting bitten, and you know, I was never bitten once without my "consent." I'm not saying I'm infallible, as yes I have been bitten by numerous nonvenomous, but those too were all with my consent. My point is that to you, whoever you are, I may seem like I only have a couple years experience keeping any snakes, but that's because I only have a couple year's experience posting on the freaking internet about snakes.
I was at a friend's house last night taking a look at his collection, which mostly consists of various native pit vipers. He pulled out a copperhead that was Satan's spawn, or close to it. The thing was snapping all over the place and it seemed like even he was barely avoiding it. Now for some crazy reason, I find myself being more comfortable handling a snake that is incapable of that sort of action. Be it a cobra or a taipan, neither are capable of the lightning fast strikes we all recommend as our good buddies the "starter venomous." Like I said, each keeper is an individual with leanings toward individual animals. I like elapids, other people like arboreals, others like viperids, etc etc etc. I figured out pretty quickly that I'm pretty skilled at handling elapids, probably because of the countless years before them that I handled wc black racers pretending they were them. I'm sorry that you can't stand that I keep these snakes, but there is nothing I can, or will, do about that. You aren't going to convince me to get rid of them, so why bother? My intentions with the canni certainly are good enough: try to help slow down the raping of their native wild populations. That's why I went with cbb, that's why I acquired 1.1, and that's why I'm going to breed them.
Don't get me wrong here Anonymous, I realize what you are trying to do. The actions of one keeper certainly are capable of affecting all keepers, however, in the last 12 months alone I've witnessed numerous bites around the country, both by private keepers and others. Be it Chad Bachman and his EA green (I think that's the mamba he was tagged by anyway), the unfortunate fire fighter in Ohio and his rhino that killed him, the man down in FL and the big black that nearly killed him, or the countless number of idiots that got themselves tagged by trying to catch rattlesnakes and the like. And you know what? Not one single law has been put in place because of any of these incidents. I'm not saying it's not possible, I am saying though that it's improbable. So maybe before you go off condemning individuals you deem below some certain point to keep some certain snake, maybe you should take a look around. To date, I've yet to even come close to being bitten by any of my venomous, be they a 7' canni, 7' black, 6.5' WA green, 5' EA green, 5' monocled, 6' forest, I could go on and on... Maybe what you can't realize is that, oh crap! maybe someone in the world is more comfortable and better at handling elapids than he is handling copperheads.
Oh, and before I close, there is a reason that people are jumping in to take up for me. It's a little concept called being nice to people, it works pretty well and is a good way to get messages across to others without interference. You could learn a few things from that concept.
-Chance Duncan
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by stopgetinpopped on January 9, 2004
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Chance,
I don't know you, we have spoken emails a few times, I don't have a problem with you keeping whatever it is you want. Though one comment you made I just wanted to politely touch upon. Careful of becoming placid with these snakes, I don't know if you are or if it just sounds like it, when saying that the copperhead was satan spawn and the taipans and mambas etc are not capable of that behavior. I have worked more venomous snakes than most ( just a fact) taipans and mambas applenty. I'm not blowing smoke up anywhere. All I'm saying is the capability of a Taipan or a mamba is nothing short of estounding. And that placid little guy holding a hook most of the time is tremendously capable of a throw of it's body and a strike that would impress most gaboons. Just make sure to use long enough forceps, hooks etc. These are not ones to have a mistake with, even if it would be your first, cause it would probably be your last. Even from a baby the bite is far more than lethal.
I'm sure you know all this, but please don't think of the worlds most evil copperhead as being even in the same world of handling difficulty, I have taipans that are extremely placid, I also have some that ride up with or over a fresh caught wild Black Mamba.....
The unknowns are what make snake handling dangerous, not the snakes themselves.
Sorry, I hope you didn't take that as a lecture, I was just attempting to share some wisdom.
Good luck with your snakes! enjoy
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by Chance on January 9, 2004
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Stopgetinpopped - Thanks for the information and civil posts. I don't underestimate what taipans, mambas, and cobras are capable of, I was just making a point that by and large, elapids are not capable of the lightening fast strikes of most viperid species. I have handled very scary mambas, an adult WA green in particular that could move from one side of a 4' long cage to the other in a green blur. I know they are capable of astounding physical feats, but even so, they still don't have the striking abilities of the viperids.
By the way, you may not have seen it in my last post, but are you in the U.S. and have mainland Australian taipans? Or are you talking about the Papuans? I'm just curious, as I know there probably are a few private keepers that have some mainland Australian elapids, but the numbers are very few and far between. If it is the Papuans you are speaking of and needing a female of, I'd be more than happy to either give you a good deal on a female offspring or help keep an eye open for you. If it's the mainland coastals though, I'm afraid I couldn't be of any help. I do know a guy that is hoping to be able to get some of the mainlands from Europe, and I know of a zoological institution that is able to get them, so hopefully we'll be seeing some mainlands pop up here and there in the near future.
-Chance Duncan
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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Anonymous post on January 9, 2004
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Chance - I understand your thought process, and realize that the concept may make sense to you, as it would to most whose experience with hots is limited to a very short period of time. It is exactly that mentality which is so dangerous, because it completely fails to realize what mambas and taipans are physically able to do. If you feel held hostage by a copperhead that you describe as "Satan's spawn", then you don't have the most remote clue of what a mamba or taipan can do. This is not surprising either, because it takes a lot of experience to even realize those physical limits. In captivity, you probably will not see a snake's true potential until it firmly believes that it is about to die. I'm not talking about defensive behavior, but plain panic!! To see this behavior, you must either spook the living hell out of the snake or inflict direct physical pain on the animal, neither of which are likely to happen. Actually, it may be years before you ever come across that situation. But when you do, there is no mistaking. A mamba or taipan in that situation will make your jaw drop, and I don't care if you've been keeping them for 6 months or 12 months. It is physically impossible for a human to handle a mamba or taipan in that situation. Impossible! Even with tongs, you would hold on for dear life! I can promise you, you have never seen these limits, or else you would not even consider copperheads for a comparison. When the time comes, you will suddenly realize that your couple of years of catching racers were not sufficient for jumping into taipans within 1.5 years afterall. A mamba or taipan can do without exception EVERYTHING that several ferocious copperheads could do put together, and more!!
You claim that your intentions are to reduce the raping of their wild populations, yet you acknowledge buying a wild-caught adult, thereby supporting the raping of those same populations that you claim to want to conserve!!! The only reason why you bought captive-bred specimens after, were (as you acknowledged earlier) that you didn't want the animals die on you again, thereby leaving a big hole in your pocket (these are your words)!! Its not about conservation for you, its about you being able to keep them at home, and to advertise the fact that you do every chance you get. I have no problem with private people keeping hots at home, but its irritating when they claim to do so selflessly for conservation!
I'm glad that you have observed the bites around the country that occured in the last 12 months (half the time that you have been keeping hots!!). Oh, not a single law has been put in place because of this?? You need to do your homework better, because Hillsborough County in Florida, where Russell Anderson got bit by a black maba, was actively trying to outlaw venomous snakes, which they can do via municipal law. Luckily, this was prevented by the involvement of some FEW responsible keepers.
And yes, I have looked around. I see inexperienced individuals that have no business keeping what they do keep, and are a liability to everyone else. You are one of those extreme cases, where I wish that there was a permit system in your state that would require a certain amount of experience before becoming licensed to keep something as deadly as taipans or mambas.
You claim that you should get credit for "all those snakes" that you have kept. Then tell me, how long did you keep each of those that you listed? 6 months? A year? Two years?? Thats often barely enough time to raise one up to adulthood, much less to be able to claim that you truly "know" the species or have significant experience with it.
Most of the time, Elapids are easier and safer to handle than pitvipers of the same size. But its not the usual time that matters, its the unusual times that do. And those are the situations where you will find yourself outgunned, unprepared, and with your pants full. And that is exactly the reason why people should start with pitvipers until they are ready and prepared to handle those situations with elapids!!!
Oh, and about being nice: Criticism is something that you must learn to tolerate and even respect. If you want that criticism to be nicely wrapped and sugar-coated, others may be willing to do so. I have no interest in winning a "nicest user" contest, but instead try to explain to people why promoting responsible keeping is the only way to keep hot keeping legal in the future!
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by tommyboy on January 9, 2004
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Man you're a piece of work. Your constantly bad mouthing the guy and acting like an all knowing expert but yet you wont even sign your name so YOUR ability and expertise can be held up to the same scrutiny. The guy resells his animals relatively quick...SO WHAT...so do many people in this hobby. Exactly how many times must you handle a cobra to be able to own one? Exactly how many years must you keep species A before moving on to B? See the answers to these type of questions must be taken on an individual basis. This may shock your ego but maybe he's better than you!? Maybe smarter!? At least he's not a coward who attacks others behind a veil.
Tom Eason
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by stopgetinpopped on January 9, 2004
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Anonymous,
I have no quarrel with you or what you are saying. I am really interested to know if you have taipans, if so which forms etc. etc. Drop me an email
the_gatorboy@yahoo.com
Looking forward to hearing from you.
taphillip
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by Chance on January 10, 2004
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Anonymous - Again you miss my entire point. I don't misunderstand what these large elapids are capable of! I've seen it firsthand, and had to deal with it firsthand. I'm not saying that these snakes are always super easy to handle. What I'm saying is that to ME (and to ME only), I find it much easier to handle elapids than I do viperids. There, end of story. I'm not going to go into it any more because I've exhausted my mental thesaurus trying to think of other ways to say it.
Look, it's obvious you are an intelligent person. Your typing speaks for itself in that manner (that also helps eliminate who I originally thought you were). And I realize what you are trying to do, when it really boils down to it. You feel threatened by people you deem incapable of keeping the animals they do because you think it will impact on your ability to keep your own animals. My point about no laws being passed though due to recent bites still stands. Regardless of whether the people in that area of FL were wanting to pass it, they didn't. Nothing happened in OH or in PA either. I'm NOT saying that it can't happen, I'm just saying that it is unlikely. The legislators, based on actual events, seem more likely to pass the laws just hearing about people keeping the animals. So again, I realize what your intentions are, and when it comes down to the basics they really are good. However, you have simply misjudged me and my abilities, and that is what I'm arguing with you. I'm not arguing to let incapable people keep animals that are beyond their means, but as much as you want to believe that about me, it is untrue.
And about my intentions, they certainly are exactly what I said they were. Yes I bought cbb because they are more likely to survive. Survive and BREED! The male I had before was going to be used for breeding, no doubt about it. I decided to get cbb not because they were not w.c., but because they had a much better chance of doing what I'd like for them to do. That, and as it has already been pointed out, working with an animal from the time it's a baby or juvenile until it's an adult really helps in getting to know that animal.
About permits, it would be great if all states had a system. And you know what, if my state did have a permit system, you can bet that I would have gotten it LONG ago and would still have taipans right now.
It still irks me that you are unwilling to muster up the guts to post your name. You find it easy to berate someone when hiding behind anonymity. Anyone can do that. Like I said, you sound intelligent in your typing, and you have some good points. Maybe if you were willing to reveal who you were, people would be more willing to listen to you. But until then, you are going to be seen the way you have already been seen in this thread, "...a coward who attacks others behind a wall."
To anyone that had made it through now to this point, it would be nice to have some more responces about the entire purpose of the thread itself. I know I will be listening (or seeing) with open eyes and ears. So if anyone else is keeping Oxyuranus and has raised young ones, by all means post away.
-Chance Duncan
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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Anonymous post on January 11, 2004
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stopgetinpopped - Thank you for the offer. I will probably contact you sometime outside of this discussion.
Chance - I understand exactly what your point is. I have followed the various hot forums since they first became available, and have seen your little journey from the colubrids to the taipans in a little over 18 months. The process was a constant repetition of itself: You would ask the most basic questions about any species, then a couple of weeks later you'd proudly post a pic of your new arrival, literally days after you first learned about its basic care. It was then that you started to become a constant liability to the hobby through your hasty purchase of numerous animals in a manner that can only be described as reckless. I have personally talked to several of those who supplied you with the animals over the last 12 months, and ALL agreed that your level of experience is far too insuficient to be keeping taipans or boomslangs. Of course, they all still made the sales to you, because (as one of your suppliers admitted) if they only sold to truly qualified people, then they wouldn't be able to survive. Its unfortunate, but all it takes to purchase a dangerous animal is money, and not even a whole lot at that.
I don't doubt that you are convinced that handling elapids is easier for you than handling vipers. This is a common mistake among keepers who have their mind set on elapids. There is also nothing wrong with making early beginner mistakes. However, this does create a serious problem when those people start keeping highly dangerous snakes before they have mastered the most basic captive care issues. At that point, those people stop being potential future assets to the hot keeping community, and instead become an instant liability. And no, I don't feel threatened by your actions. Regardless what future laws may have in store for private keepers, it will not have any influence on me or my ability to work with hots. Nevertheless, I do care a lot about the private sector, and it would be a shame if the laws continue to worsen the way they have steadily over the past 20 years. The only way to prevent this is by establishing a code of firm guidelines that is generally accepted in the hot keeping community. Those who ignore this code due to selfish impatience and an egoistic mindset should be frowned upon for being a liability to those who are have worked hard to maintain their privileges to keep these animals. Sounds idealistic? Probably, but its worth fighting for!!!
You honestly think that you have seen the physical capabilities of mambas and taipans firsthand?? Ok, exactly what kind of behavior did you observe when your mambas, say D.angusticeps, felt that it was about to die?? How did this behavior differ from the typical defensive behavior in that same species? Also, how did that behavior differ when compared to, say D.polylepis??
If you think that it is unlikely for restrictive laws to be passed, then you are grossly misperceiving the political situation! Only a few states are still lacking regulations at the state level, and even those usually have municipalities that outlaw hots in certain areas. It is highly likely that more restrictive laws will be passed, and those odds increase with every bite to a private keeper. The potential headlines about the 20-yr old kid that jumped directly into cobras and (after less than two years) got himself some taipans over the Internet, could be disastrous. All a reporter would have to do is search through the various forums to find your neatly documented arrival at the hot scene.
Your intentions may be to breed them eventually, but as your first venture into Oxyuranus demonstrated, there are other issues that you need to master first. Most snakes are relatively easy to breed, and taipans are no exception to that. O.s.canni and O.s.scutellatus are bred in zoos and private collections around the globe. There are numerous captive-hatched O.s.canni in U.S. collections, as several clutches were hatched a few years back (while you were still trying to master kingsnakes). The nominate form is also kept occasionally, though its not quite as common as the PNG subspecies. O.microlepidotus is the only one that can really be considered rare, though there are several private collectors outside of the U.S. working with the inland form right now. Its easy for you to claim that your intentions were breeding, but your actions displayed a complete inability to as much as properly treat the animals for parasites and acclimate them accordingly, which is something that anyone even considering hots should know by heart. By the time anyone even thinks about working with taipans and mambas, these aspects shouldn't even be worth mentioning. Factos like veterinary care, antivenin, hands-on experience, etc are important parts that distinguish the presponsible keeper from the average impatient 20-yr old that likes to brag about his overpriced taipans (you were had, captive-hatched O.s.canni sold for as little as $350 just a few years ago, and are at least equal in quality to cbb specimens).
I don't care if you think that I'm intelligent or not, nor would my typing be a worthwhile indicator of such. Who I am and what I do means nothing, and I have absolutely no interest in signing my post. Anonymity is a feature that this forum provides, and if you don't like it, go elsewhere. I'm not berating you as a person, but instead I'm criticising your lacking competence as a hot keeper. You may not have noticed, but I haven't used any explicit language, nor have I made any verbal threats, unlike some of the other participants. I am absolutely oblivious to how others may perceive my posts and if you honestly believe that a few juvenile taunts will tempt me into name calling or into abandoning my anonymity, then you are naive in the most extreme sense.
To anyone who has read this post this far: Your attention span is greater than that of 90% of the population.
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by Chance on January 11, 2004
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Anonymous - I've grown tired of having to counter everything you say. I'm done with it, I suppose. Obviously this back and forth is going to get neither of us anywhere, so it's pointless to continue. However, regardless of what it is you think of me, you haven't changed my mind or my heart. I'm going to continue to keep these taipans, and with any luck, in the next few years, I'll be producing cbb of my own. Continue to think what you wish about me, obviously nothing I say is going to reverse any of that. Oh, and I'm not going to stop posting either, be it to ask a question or give some advice. Attack me where you will, but I'll counter you there too. Until then, have a good one. Oh, and by the way, I can personally guarantee that your erroneous statements about talking to the dealers I buy from is complete and utter b.s., so you may want to try a different route if you are going to invent things.
-Chance Duncan
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by bitisatrox on January 11, 2004
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now back to antivenom do you have your own?
if so good on ya!
but if you don't, a piece of advice..... GET SOME!
there are only 2 zoos that I know of on the east cost that have Australia poly on hand and not enough for you...... and there both many hours away and your not going to have that kind of time....
I only point this out as i am aware of many privet bites here recently that have caused depletions in zoo stocks. people must wise up and start realizing this is not a game.....
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