RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by stopgetinpopped on January 12, 2004
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No it is not a game, and I am fully in agreement about the private sector people keeping there own antivenom, I am in the zoo community and several of my fellow friends in other zoo's have put there lifes on the line to save others lives that were not responsible enough to get their own serum. (by depleting zoo stock).
So please, it is expensive a pain in the butt to get, but is available and within the realm of possibilities for everyone serious about the hobby to stock their own serum. It's much like buying a car, and not having enough money or not wanting to take the time and effort to buy/install breaks. A fatality waiting to happen!
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by Chance on January 12, 2004
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Sorry about the delay in my reply, I didn't think this post was going to be productive any longer. As to the question of antivenom, no I do not maintain my own supply. I have a few reasons for this and I will give them below. I do, however, know where and how to contact those who maintain the Australian polyvalent that covers O. s. canni. I know this is not the best way to go about treating a bite, but for myself, and the vast majority of other hot keepers, that's how it is.
Stopgetinpopped brought up a point I'd like to address. You equate keeping antivenom with buying a car. I believe this to be erroneous. No matter what species you maintain, the cost of AV is phenominal. Even CroFab I've heard is stupidly expensive. Zoo personnel and Floridians can preach about keeping one's own supply of AV all they wish, because theirs is basically supplied for them. Zoo keepers don't pay a penny out of pocket for AV access and Floridians subscribe to a state wide AV bank for a very minimal yearly fee (or so I've heard). From a realistic standpoint, keeping one's own AV is comparable to buying a new vehicle every three years, no trade in. You simply throw the vehicle away after three years and buy another one. That is, IF the AV isn't already aged somewhat by the time you get it. A three year shelf life is rediculous. I'd imagine the makers are trying to forumulate ways to make it last longer. So let's say a person keeps his/her own AV, and a couple weeks to a month after the expiration date he/she is bitten. The person cannot self-administer the serum for fear of immediate anaphylaxis killing him/her dead on the spot, 10x faster than any snake venom. The paramedics probably won't administer it (I'm taking this directly from the mouths of an EMT unit I gave an educational presentation to last summer) because they typically don't have the means to counteract sever anaphylaxis. Doctors, who are already very leary of using a foreign, non EPA-approved drug, are certainly going to be cautious administering an expired foreign, non EPA-approved drug. So unless the person is just rish beyond imagining, keeping one's own decent supply of AV begins to go slightly beyond the realm of possibilities for most people.
Don't get me wrong here. I'm not AT ALL saying that it's bad for keepers to keep their own AV. I think it'd be great if every state that allow the keeping of venomous snakes were to formulate a state-wide AV bank, but that's impossible. The Floridians have it great, and I hope they appreciate that. Zoo personnel are set to go, as long as the animals they privately maintain can be treated with the AV covering the zoo's species. The rest of us though are just up a creek in this issue. I can't name one single hot keeper that can afford to dish out $10,000 to $20,000 every three years or better, and I bet most people reading this can't either. I'm talking private keepers no located in Florida and not employed by zoos or great friends of zoo personnel.
So anyway, that's why I do not maintain my own supply. However, I can name two sources in MO (directly north of me), one source in KY, and of course FL where the Australian polyvalent is kept. Maybe one of these days when I win the lottery I'll keep my own :) Sorry for any typos, as it's very early for me and I'm rushing through this at my Uni's library.
-Chance Duncan
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by Kristen on January 13, 2004
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Reference antivenom
If you have the snake you should have the antivenom. As far as expense of antivenom how much is a life worth. Keeping venomous without antivenom risks my life as a zookeeper when I send it out to save someones life. It also risks the lives of ER personal that have to rush to save you. All actions have a reaction. Ohio is looking at laws because since Thanksgiving there has been 5 exotic bites in Ohio alone. The media always brings up the lack of antivenom and danger keeping venomous is to the public.
If you have your own antivenom it makes you look better to the public. And the public are who make laws not herp keepers.
Zoos do have to pay for antivenom and when it is used on a private keeper more often then not we do not get paid for it. But now lawyers are looking at suing individuals that endanger zoo staff by using antivenom and not having their own supply. So not having antivenom may become more expense then having it for private keepers.
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by elapidking81 on January 14, 2004
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well
anonymous are you ok ? i mean what are you doing ?
every day we have to defend howere selfs aginst those that think where crazy , now you are right other herpers can hurt us all but chance from what i know seems to be a skilled herper (and i dont even know him)well im 22 and i keep hots so what every body is thier own person how am i or you to say what chance can or cannot do . we all can sit around and think of reasons not to keep hots or for others not to keep them if we held howere selfs at the same kind of examination of ones ablities none of us whould have hots :-)
ps: sorry for the spelling i also am using a school computer
shane kissinger
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by cottonmouth on January 18, 2004
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If Chance is responsable, then what does it matter how long he keeps them. I am sure he is not stupid and understans the danger or he would be dead by now. Happy Herping.
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by JRHarrison on January 19, 2004
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The point is not if Chance gets bitten but why should a person keep venomous reptiles without their own antisera. Expecting zoos to risk their employees lives because someone wants to have a pet is not right and now will bring with it legal ramifications.
If you can buy the snake you should be able to buy the antisera.
Using the word research to justify the keeping of these animals has become very common. Alot can be learned from working with animals in captivity, but just having animals in cages and reproducing is not research.
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by Chance on January 19, 2004
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JRHarrison, there is a vast difference between being able to afford $1500 one time and being able to afford $12,000 every three or less years. $12,000 is based upon a person keeping the Australian polyvalent, which costs around $1,200 per vial, and keeping at least 10 vials on hand. In reality though, it would probably be better to keep more than 10 vials on hand. Like it has already been pointed out numerous times on here and on kingsnake's venomous forum, zoo keepers are certainly quick to judge others when they don't have to pay anything out of pocket for easy access to AV, but for those of us unfortunate enough to not be employed by a zoo, we should have to bear the burden and not complain aboiut it. Sorry, but that just doesn't equate. Oh well, this issue has been run into the ground quite enough. It's obvious neither side is going to budge, so the debate is now pointless.
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by JRHarrison on January 19, 2004
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You are right I will never agree that someone should risk others lifes. And as the source of antisera in KY for Taipans. I would point out vials (poly)are 40ml which means 2 to 3 vials would treat most bites. At about 1200 a vial that is cheaper then what you will pay if you use the zoos antisera. New court cases are giving the zookeepers the right to sue private individuals that risk the zoo staffs lives. I was just warning those that thing zoos have deep pockets and can buy antisera for private keepers that the times are a changing. Dayton Ohio is about to ban all venomous because of the death of a keeper. If private keepers do not start keeping their own antisera the hobby is going to be outlawed across the country.
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RE: Taipan captive growth rate
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by Chance on January 20, 2004
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See now, this is a concept I haven't exactly grasped yet. "I was just warning those that thing zoos have deep pockets and can buy antisera for private keepers that the times are a changing." Why is it that many of you people think that if, say, I were to use a portion of some zoo's AV stock, that I would not replace it? Do you think that zoos just willingly hand it out and eat the expense without repayment? I don't know where these thoughts have came from, but I know that that's not how it would go in my case. Obviously anything used on me personally would be paid for by me. Maybe this "borrowing" system works differently in other states....who knows.
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