VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
There often is some friction between zoos and private keepers, because of the lack of antivenin being kept by private keepers. Do you believe that this is justified?   Posted: Dec 28, 2005   (124 votes, 17 comments) by Nightflight99   Yes, private keepers should have all of their own antivenin.   Yes, but only in part. Antivenin is quite difficult to obtain.   I think that both sides have valid arguments.   No, zoos are not legally required to supply private keepers in emergency situations.   No, zoos are businesses that operate on organizational funding, private keepers are just private individuals.   I do not know enough about this topic to form an opinion.   Other     (124 votes, 17 comments)
Survey Results
Yes, private keepers should have all of their own antivenin. 32% (40) Yes, but only in part. Antivenin is quite difficult to obtain. 24% (30) I think that both sides have valid arguments. 25% (31) No, zoos are not legally required to supply private keepers in emergency situations. 4% (5) No, zoos are businesses that operate on organizational funding, private keepers are just private individuals. 5% (6) I do not know enough about this topic to form an opinion. 7% (9) Other 2% (3)
Survey Comments
? Don't get bit! Know your animals before handling them. thats a good first step, secondly people shouldn't have antivenin on hand at their house, thats like keeping a supply of blood , just in case you get in a car accident. Its rediculous. The keeper should locate the type they may need, and inform their doctors of what to do in an emergency, because, lets fece it, most doctors are just fools that can read a book and pass a test, they have no idea how to treat snakebite. Posted by xvenomx on May 9, 2006 One side or the other, it will never end I do think that both sides have a valid argument, but in my mind this is one that will keep going. Personally, I see no way that your Average Keeper could ever afford to keep their own AV Stocks. I know that AV has a limited Shelf Life, this in itself would cause all kinds of problems. Think of the money that would have to be spent on AV alone, if you also factor in the cost of Heating Cages, Food, Substrate and other odds and ends. Lord, this would probably kill off most of the Privet Keepers in this Country. On the other hand, I do see the point brought up by Zoos. It is a bad thing for any Privet Keeper to make him / her self dependent on Zoo AV. If I were still a Zoo curator, it would probably worry me to death not knowing if I would have the AV I needed on hand. So, I do see the points made from both sides. Lets hope that this argument don’t lead to more Unneeded Bans..........................Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally Posted by ALA_herp31 on January 20, 2006 Keeping anti venom I sympathise with the Zoo's as I appreciate how expensive (and in some cases)how hard it can be to find the right AV. However, the short shelf life and extreme expense makes this a proposition where only the most wealthy can afford to keep hots-not the most experienced or wise. Here in Florida we have Venom One. When we talked to them they said it was better to not keep AV on hand as it decreased the available supply on rare species. I would like to see other states set up a system like we have. Frank Posted by Rearfang on January 19, 2006 Using Zoo Antivenin When a private individual is bitten and uses antivenin from a zoological park, he or she is placing the employees of that institution in extreme jeopardy. Those professionals are then obliged to perform their job with diminished or depleted supplies of serum. It happens.....and it should not. If Joe Herper wants to keep an exotic, he must take responsibility for having antivenin on hand. Posted by Pug on January 17, 2006 keeping antivenin I think that it is generally impractical to keep you own antivenin in the US (too much paperwork and cost when you get over a few species). I think individuals who chose to keep venomous snakes should realize that it is very dangerous and certainly potentially fatal endevor and they should be prepared that if they get bitten they may die! That said, if there is a source of antivenin close enough to be effective then it seem like the right thing to do would be to use it (it does have a shelf life after which they will not be able to use it)and the individual should be ask to pay to replace it. They cost of the non USA antivenin will probably only be a drop in the bucket compared to the hospital costs. Posted by BobH on January 9, 2006 keeping antivenin I would love to see more AV banks that one could join or subscribe too with an annual fee.I would probably get back into exotics.One thing I've heard alot of times is that even if you do keep a supply of AV, no doctor would use a drug that you've been keeping at your house anyway for fear of malpractice suits.If thats the case, why buy it?(unless you can administer it yourself which I wouldn't want to count on) Posted by agkistrodude on January 7, 2006 Insurance coverage Re Catspaw's comments on insurance. I am a claims adjuster for a well known insurance company. Unless the certificate of insurance specifies an exclusion, or you fail to disclose information when asked on an application the claim cannot be denied. Posted by captiveherps on January 7, 2006 I voted "I think that both sides have valid arguments." Antivenom banks is the way forward and hats off to Al et al. But for those who are not within the catchment area for an AVbank what are the possibilities for private keepers as a community, approaching their local zoo and donating a yearly fee for purchasing and keeping stocks of antivenom!? Just a thought. Scott your a zoo keeper, would this be possible? John Posted by Rabies on January 4, 2006 Zoo Side... As it was explained to me, the problem is that to bring antivenom into the US is to bring in what is classified as an Eperimental Drug. When Jon Doe gets bit and is lucky enough to have a zoo nearby keeping a species that would cause them to stock that antivenom, they're probably going to send it to the hospital. They can say "no," but the negative press is not good, plus the threat of lawsuit from the bitten (whether or not it will hold up in court). So Jon gets the antivenom and the zoo is out for the next 6 moths or so and therefor cannot work the snake for risk of getting a keeper bit. The problme with the cost issue is that once they give the antivenom out, because it is an experimental drug, they CANNOT request payment for it from the bitten or the hospital. That would classify them as drug dealers. So in a way, they're screwed becuase they have to buy double the supply at the already outrageous prices in order to protect the public and themselves. Yes it's expensive for private keepers, yes you're looking at several months after paying to get it into the states, but please don't say the zoos are hording it by any means. I strongly support the idea of antivenom banks where everyone pays a little per year to have access should they be bitten. I work at a zoo, but when I keep hots again, I will not rely on the zoo's, I will keep my own, whether I have to pony up the cash myself or I join an antivenom bank. But after learning the above, I don't see how it's fair to rely on your local zoo should you get bitten (assuming they even have the antivenom you need). Posted by Crotalus_Catcher on January 3, 2006 For exotic snakes, Yes they should I believe that people should own their own anti-venin for exotics unless they live near an anti-venin bank. I also do not think people should have to keep anti-venin for snakes that are native to the US that can be convered by Crofab or Bioclon which are readily avalible at the local hospital. Phillip Posted by timberrattlesnake89 on January 2, 2006 For exotic snakes, Yes they should I believe that people should own their own anti-venin for exotics unless they live near an anti-venin bank. I also do not think people should have to keep anti-venin for snakes that are native to the US that can be convered by Crofab or Bioclon which are readily avalible at the local hospital. Phillip Posted by timberrattlesnake89 on January 2, 2006 hording antivenom..a stupid idea! This whole idea of every keeper having a stock pile of antivenom is down right stupid. How stupid would it be to have thousand and thousands of viles of antivenom sitting in privite keepers hands never being used? Most keepers dont get biten..and many keep many diffrent types of venoms reptiles. There are simply not enough supply for every venomous keeper to keep his own antivenom. To ask very privite keeper to do so is irresponsible and stupid. We are not talking about an unlimmited resorces here! I will agree that there should be more antivenom banks and privite keepers should work much harder to support, promote and provite this resorces. We should work smarte to provide better access for all... Posted by MrBliss on January 2, 2006 life saving Why should a zoo have access to something that is manufacted for all as a potential life saving emergency drug? The zoo in my immediate fascinate employees novices then trains them. Due to this unprofessional start why should they be granted superiority because they are a business? Posted by Snakes_Inc on January 1, 2006 Private AV/ Personal Responsibility I voted yes. Private keepers should have their own supply of antivenin. I say this because I prefer to err on the side of taking personal responsibility for my actions... although I endorse the idea of private AV Banks. That way you can have private access to the AV you need, share the cost with other like minded individuals, and avoid putting zoos in a position of bailing people out, as a matter of social conscience. Stepping up and taking personal responsibility is key to the survival of this hobby. Andrew Posted by MoccasinMan on December 30, 2005 Antivenom If we would live in a perfect world, every single hot herp keeper would afford his own antivenom suply. This how in my opinion things are supose to be like. I have 2 species of exotic hots and there is no one i nmy country that has exotic snake antivenom. Best regards, Alex S. Posted by Snake18 on December 30, 2005 keeping antivenin No matter what the zoo says,I believe that if your going to keep exotic venomous, having the proper antivenin on hand is a must,for your own protection and those around you.Personally,I don't keep exotics anymore,therefore I don't keep antivenin either. Marty Posted by agkistrodude on December 29, 2005 keeping anit venom I am not a keeper of Venomous snakes. I recently inquired with my health insurance provider (ODS) in Oregon what coverage I would have if I kept venomous snakes. If I kept hots I would have to notify them, at which time I would be canceled. If I were bitten my a free roaming snake I would be covered. If I was trying to capture a free roaming snake and got bit I would have partial coverage. She could not provide a dollar amount. They have nothing in writing they could provide for me. The reason was the cost of the care for victims of a bite. Also American Family Ins. would not cover me keeping hots or anyone at my residence if they were bit. The Zoo would provide the antivenin but the persons insurance co would refuse to pay the bill. Maybe the Zoos have a point. Posted by catspaw on December 29, 2005 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!