VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
If a federal law was passed that required all private keepers to stock their own antivenin, what would your reaction be?   Posted: Oct 26, 2004   (226 votes, 28 comments) by Nightflight99   I would comply with the law and acquire my own antivenin for all species that I keep.   I might obtain some of the antivenin, but not all.   I would not acquire any antivenin, and simply be very discrete about my animals.   I would get rid of my animals.   I do not keep venomous reptiles.     (226 votes, 28 comments)
Survey Results
I would comply with the law and acquire my own antivenin for all species that I keep. 62% (141) I might obtain some of the antivenin, but not all. 16% (36) I would not acquire any antivenin, and simply be very discrete about my animals. 14% (31) I would get rid of my animals. 3% (6) I do not keep venomous reptiles. 5% (12)
Survey Comments
ANTIVENOM have collected, cought, and kept venomous herps for years. before lacey, esa, and plane hijackings (mainly to cuba), could actually bring on board. now keep south florida species for educational demonstrations, no longer handle or extract during such demonstrations and have a number of heloderma years ago, anti- venom was not that expensive obtained through wyth labs and for the real exotics, got from jack facente. today southeast florida has venom one with firefighter and reptile envenomation expert, al cruz it is incumbent on all of us who keep these animals to do so safely. as for the permit rate increase, yes it should have been raised;however the amount of the raise is absurd; especially for someone as myself who also is permitted for class one, two and three wildlife in the state. i pay the same for my big cat permits as a facility that takes hours or even a day to inspect while it requires just several minutes for me. i am now paying $450 per year for all state permits. have never suffered a bite. dry bites and near misses dont count. have been somewhat stupid regarding my gilas. first bite caused pain and swelling of hand and arm up to elbow. stayed in touch with george vanhorn during night, just in case. second bite caused same, however just hand with pain and swelling not as intense. there won't be a third. then again, there wasn't supposed to be a first or second. even though i am winding down, i support the right of others to keep such animals. there are too many who would deny us that right. Posted by RIG on April 13, 2005 only keeping two speices now well I am only keeping two species now and I find that I could easily afford the AV so why not comply at least I will still get to keep my snakes Posted by SerpenXotics on March 19, 2005 well well im not ritch but i would have to obey they law!!! Posted by sweet_becca on January 21, 2005 I would get the A V... I would get the A V... Or I would place my collection with someone who did if I was unable to obtain the AV myself. ~Todd Posted by RepFan on January 8, 2005 This is the first time I've visited this website. I found it searching for breeding info and this question is was to controversial to pass up. I live in Florida and have the licence required by our state to posess venonous reptiles. The cost of that license increased this year from $5 to $100. The fee hasn't increased at all in several decades but I feel it was very overdue. I only bring this up because I know there are a number of states that have no permit requirements regarding venomous reptiles. Because of the obvious malpractice lawsuits that come with someone showing up in the ER with their own AV, there is no way private AV supplies would ever work. I feel that every state should have a license requirement that includes a cost of an AV bank in that state. It would eliminate the problem of compliance and should reduce the cost of the AV itself being an actual gov't entity. Just my opinion. By the way, if anyone has tips on breeding Aspidelaps I would appreciate the help. Posted by grimmkim on November 27, 2004 Well, if they passed that, it would be a very good way for the government to destroy the the venomous herp world without much effort because very few could afford it. Forums would disappear, classifieds, the sale of books, ect. Posted by cottonmouth on November 27, 2004 people should do it anyway I agree with the prior statements regarding having your own A/V. I cannot see anything but the obligation of an owner to provide for the "mishappenings" that may result from thier keepings. Its an individuals obligation to be "responsible" for thier "pets." Dogs get rabies vaccines so they can help thwart dangerous "mishaps", so why can owners of v.-snakes carry thier own or at least be responsible enough to provide some type of A/V precaution. I wonder how many people currently owning venomous varieties even carry thier own A/V now? Or, how are they handling the concerns of bites?.... relying on local zoo's A/V stocks? Posted by nmattydude on November 26, 2004 Well said Lynnsie! Karl Posted by Buzztail1 on November 24, 2004 just a quick word I believe that if you want a venomous snake or other reptile you would have to go by the law. its simple enough, pay the cost of keeping a reptile or get rid of it. myslef i own 5 snakes, none of which are venomous. but if one day i chose to own one i would want to have some antivenin around, just in case. Posted by herpetoligist_in_training on November 23, 2004 3 Arguments again private AV 1. It is over expensive 2. Expiry of AV 3. In case being tagged, you carry you AV to the Hospital, and they deny the Application with the Argument, that they cannot be sure, if it was stored according to the manufacturers manual. And this is more likely to happen in the US, because everyone with responsibility there is allergic to Law suits. The only way, is, as I said, you ppl have to found a Serum Depot... Greets David Posted by DrSnuggles on November 15, 2004 Cost provided the government supply the antivenin, as the lovely horse serum deemed CroFab is fairly expensive judging from my recent hospital visit, in and around $800/vial, average required dosage being 8-20 vials...that's a little pricey, but my love of reptiles is well worth it Posted by jared_cormier on November 13, 2004 Just a thought I would never recommend that someone openly break the law. I think requiring people to acquire their own supply of exotic antivenins makes sense. Antivenin for indigenous snakes could certainly be expected to be held at the local hospital (albeit the expense could be quite high). However, from what I have heard and researched online, antivenins for exotic venomous are mostly made in countries other than the US and their cost is much less). Perhaps a system could be arranged through one's personal physician (or local hospital) whereby they kept onhand antivenin for the species that one keeps, bought and paid for by the individual, but in the hands of the medical professional in the event of crisis. Just a thought. Karl Posted by Buzztail1 on November 11, 2004 All I can see... .....are millions of lawsuits drawn up and driven home by morally lax trial lawyers. But have no fear. The ignorance of the public will ensure that none of us in America will be allowed affordable access to any venom for any exotic that we might keep. Which is why I, a starving college student, keep only a two year old python and lots and lots of mice. Some day I hope to own a Bushmaster [if only to taunt my Democratic friends]. And a Hagen's Tree Viper. Just to thwart the burgulars. Posted by Raiha-San on November 6, 2004 Add on to Serum Depot 1. Sorry for posting the prior Comment 3 Times. I guess that was the Cyber Space Echo...;-) The Serum Depot is in Berlin, and the annual charges are 250 € (Euros) The Idea is, that you register yourself, and your animals. In case of an emergency, they provide the appropriate AV for Free. But everyone, who get bitten , has to underdo an allergic test to Horse proteins, prior to AV application. Maybe, this is an Initative, what should be applied to the US as well. This Serum Depot is a non-commercial Institution, established by the Herpetological Society. This Depot could be established in a central hospital pharmacy, which has 24-7 service anyway. Remember, together you are strong. If anyone needs more Information about this, please contact. I will provide necc. Infos. (Btw, everything from Germany is good, except that Stuff what doesnt work.) Greets David Posted by DrSnuggles on November 6, 2004 Serum Depot Hello Friends, we have in Germany Serum Depots, which any Reptile keeper can join in, as a Club Member for a monthly fee. This Idea could surround any law restrictions in the US. Unless the Law says, exactly in what distance to the Animal the AV has to be stored. One Serum Depot per US State on a Hospital with an Helicopter base, should be appropriate. Maybe I invented the Wheel just new, and you people have this kind of faccillity allready. Greets from over the pond David Posted by DrSnuggles on November 6, 2004 Antiserum A law like this would be hard to pass and the lawmakers would just outlaw all venomous. Much easier for them to enforce. Having your own antiserum would go a long way towards showing that you are a safe keeper. But a permit system like Florida and requiring that all keepers have antiserum could be away of self policing to head off total bans on venomous. Cost should not be a factor as it is part of owning the animal. If you could not afford to feed them you would and should not have them. Same is true with antiserum. Crofab is expensive but there are other antiserums available for exotics that are not. Antiserum banks within one hour drive time could help keepers cut costs. To much delay in getting antiserum can lead to organ damage and death. Jim Harrison Posted by JRHarrison on November 4, 2004 Anti-Venom I fail to see how a Law such as this could pass! There are far to many veriables, Such as the cost,Crofab can run as much as $1.500 per vial, and the usual dose is six (6) for a respectable envenomation. And that is only for our north American vipers. #2 would be having an allergy to the Drug. #3 would be the rout of administration I M would be out so you would have to learn the proper tecnique for starting an I V line, Who would teach those willing to do this. #4 All drugs have an expiration date and this could be cost prohivative. And the list goes on. No I feel that sooner or later some Moron with a Hot Rep. will do something realy Stupid and we all will have to pay for it. Posted by Atrox9 on November 3, 2004 TexasCobra I would only get some of the antivenom because it is really expencive and im not ritch. I keep over 40 diferent speaces of venomous reptiles and theres no way me or mostly anyone else on this form could afford that much antivenom ( NO AFFENCE ). Its just not logical thanx James H. Posted by TexasCobra on October 30, 2004 Here in the peoples republic of Canada, we need health Canada's permission to bring in antivenin made in forgin countries. I have contacted them 3 times to find out about getting the south African polyvalent, but they will not reply to me. My doc will write a script and the drug co will send it but they need to sign off on it first. I figure if I was to get bit they have established a severe liablity for themselves. Posted by captiveherps on October 30, 2004 people should do it anyway i can understand that some people dont bother keeping their own A/V because they only keep native species and their local hospital should stock it anyway. but if someone keeps exotic species then it should be their responsibility to stock their own and not rely on other sources like zoos. the other places stock thier own exotic A/V have it for thier own keepers and it is not their responsibility to look out for hobbyists. Hotvenomgirl, A/V takes hundreds of milkings and normally numerous venom donours are needed. after the venom is collected it is used to make animals such as horses immune to the venom by injecting non-lethal doses into it. after it build us a immunity the antibodies are taken from the blood and are procesed into A/V Posted by aussieherper on October 30, 2004 hotvenomgirl Very simply speaking Anti venom is something that you have to apply for the appropriate federal permits, and order from the country of origin of the species you keep. It most definitely is NOT something you extract venom from your own snakes and make at home! It is something that people do for a living professionally and scientifically in a very controlled laboratory setting! Posted by stopgetinpopped on October 29, 2004 Survey question.. If this did ever come about, which I hope it doesn't, I would do what I could to obtain my own AV. Although another way I look at this is.. Getting AV you have to milk the snake. I don't think I want to be that close to the snakes mouth. That would be in my mind, more of a chance of me getting bit other than just simply keeping my animals. Do you not agree? If someone has the passion to do that (milking a snake) for a living then I personally think let them get that close. If that's their choose of what they want to be then why can't we obtain the AV that way? Isn't that the reason those people have that type of career? Anyways, that's just my opinion, as I'm sure we all feel very differently about this subject!! Thanks, Shauna Posted by HotVenomGirl on October 28, 2004 all tho i dont keep hots at the mo. if neccesary when i do get some i would deffinalty get the nessisarcy antiviens why should my mistake potentialy cost someone else their life because i was too selfish to buy in my own stocks? i know how badly underfunded most zoos are when it comes to this sort of thing :( Posted by mat on October 28, 2004 Absolutely, I would keep my own exotic AV regardless if it were required by law or not. I am working on acquiring my import permits as we speak. Now I probably won't stock CroFab, because it's ridiculously expensive and where I live, readily available. I figure that if I get bitten by a N.A. crotalid, I'll be getting the antivenin at the hospital anyway, so why stock it? Now exotics are a different story, and I'm not going to take precious AV from a zoo or private individual to cover my ass! Posted by psilocybe on October 27, 2004 Raw Venom Supplier I have a company in So.California that offers assistance to the public in safe, sane removal of unwanted Pit Vipers from their property. The Fire Department has contacted me in order to utilize my service, but there are no permits availiable for me to aquire, thus on the table, they cannot formally authorize me. I am working with the Cal. State Fish and Game Commission to rectify the regulations and save untold millions to the taxpayers. With a little effort, my temporary captives might be milked several times prior to release back into the wild, and the eventual cost of finished Antivenin might be substantially reduced. Good Idea? zanewaldo www.rattlesnakecapture.com Rattlesnake Capture And Disposition Co. Posted by Zanewaldo on October 27, 2004 Cant afford the vials, maybe I'd slim down my collection a little to one or 2 hots, but overall, I think the trade would simply move underground and become similar to the way marijuana is hobbied. With vial purchases would have to come certifications and EMT courses because of anaphalactic shock and all the peripheral situations that stem from being bitten by a venomous animal. It's best left to the people who are trained to administer it. Im NOT saying however, every doctor at your local clinic knows what they're doing when they treat a snakebite. Just my a.d.d. 2 cents Posted by guttersnacks on October 27, 2004 Absolutely! No question about it. AV is a must for all venomous snake keepers. It's just not right to ask for (or take) Av from a zoo or private person who has gone through all the trouble and expense to get it. Besides most exotic Av is less than 100 dollars per vial! So a little self regulation would be in order..If I couldn't afford to buy my own, I wouldn't keep that species and potentially rape a zoo or private persons stock, thus endangering their lives!!!! Terry Posted by stopgetinpopped on October 26, 2004 Federal law to keep antivenin, whats next? In my mind i wouldnt spend the money required to obtain antivenin. I have heard that even for some of the native species prices can run up around $2,000 a vile, I dont know if thats right or not but if it is my lord only the money makers will be able to aford keeping antivenin being the stuff only has a limeted shelf life. Well if i had to i would try but lets hope no such law is inacted......Happy herping Wally Posted by ALA_herp31 on October 26, 2004 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!