VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Thanks for voting! Your vote has been included in the results below. Do you see anything wrong with buying/owning a Venomoid Snake? "Definition of Venomoid: a snake that has had it's venom glands removed or impaired and can no longer inject venom."   Posted: Jan 30, 2002   (858 votes, 80 comments) by MWSERPENTARIUM
Survey Results
Yes 58% (494) No 38% (328) Don't care 4% (36)
Survey Comments
venomoid I'm a naturalist for the state park system, and I do many programs on snakes. My programs are usually done at amphitheaters, outside with no protective walls, in a very uncontrolled environment. My audiences usually include campers, and local visitors (many children and adults alike, with young children usually running around rampant). To do a program with a venoumous snake would be dangerous considering there would be no safe way to do this when in an uncontrolled environment. To compare non-venomous species to venomous species, I use a venomoid snake. This was the best way that I have found to educated people on the differences between the two, without losing my job, a life, or having a lawsuit. By the way, I also currently have venomous snakes, but they are not used for programs. I am comfortable handling all of my snakes, and do not feel that all people who own venomoid snakes are afraid of the venom. So I do not think that a venomoid snake is a bad thing, as long as they are properly cared for, and are not left to defend for themselves, since so many "pet" owners abandon their "pets". Posted by shellie97 on March 15, 2004 venomoid well i pretty much argee with jaffo, the only thin else that i have to say is that a venomoid is still an act of nature with human alterations. but a morhp is a human acting as nature without the experiance Posted by dragonsaver on March 9, 2004 venemoids are nothing more than animal cruelty ,keepers of such should have their arms and legs removed and have to fend for themselves . just my opinion, Dion Posted by DTOX on May 29, 2002 My two cents..... Hi everyone. I am a fourteen year old girl and I know I will be a herpetologist one day. Please don't judge me by my age, my love of reptiles has been with me since I was a young child and my wanting a snake is not due to wanting to impress my friends. I came on this website to get advice from practised and experienced herpetologists and I am very interested in all this contreversy concerning venomoid snakes. I have little knowledge about the operation involved, and of the healing process. However I think that if the operation must be done, it should be done with a qualified vet to cause minimal trauma and pain on the snake. I also think that we must question one's reasons for owning a venomoid snake. For educational purposes it may be OK. However if the reason for owning a venomoid snake is because the owner is afraid or not ready to tackle a venomous snake then having the venom glands removed would be cruel to the snake as it is not the snake's fault that the owner is not ready. And I am assumming that the same care and caution would be taken with a venomoid snake as with a venomous snake - so if you are careful then there should be no need to cause the snake pain. I think the only time I would have a venomoid snake, is if it was abandoned by someone who was not ready to take on full responsibility, as without its venom glands, the snake would not last long in the wild. I couldn't put a snake through the operation for my own selfish reasons, and I wouldn't buy one from a private collector as that would create a demand for them and therefore, more venomoid snakes would be created. Oh yeah, to the person who wrote the comment about educational purposes, please read 'I have found a reason' posted by Vette (one of many reasons). And people, back to a question i posted earlier - would you be for or against owning a venomoid if you knew you were allergic to antivemon? Posted by SnakeEyes on May 14, 2002 Venomoids?@#$ I strongly disagree with anything having to do with venomoids. No one can give me a justified reason to take what makes a "HOT" snake a hot snake away from them. People say they keep venomoids for "EDUCATIONAL REASONS". Now will someone please explain to me how you are going to teach about a HOT snake if it isn't hot? The main difference in hot and not hot is the way they kill their prey, one kills with venom and the other doesn't. So if you are going to teach about a HOT snake and it can't even kill its own food, then what is there to teach? Personaly I LOVE watching my HOTS go after their food and kill it. Also, look at it this way. What if the shoe were on the other foot and we were the ones being held in captivity against our will and what ever was keeping us decided to take off our arms because we could use them as weapons to hurt or kill. Would you agree or dissagree with that? If you want a non-venomous snake, then get one that is non-venomous by nature not by man. If you are scared then say you are and leave the HOTS to people who KNOW how to handle HOTS and can provide proper care for them. For those of you who keep venomoids because you got tagged by a hot and blame it on the snake, grow up! It is NEVER the snakes fault that you got tagged, the snake is doing the only thing (by nature) that it knows to do and that is to defend itself. If you had something that was 70 times larger than you comming towards you what are you going to do? That's right, you are going to defend yourself the only way you know how. My conclusion is that either you have TRUE love for VENOMOUS SNAKES or you don't. THOSE OF YOU WHO TAKE "VENOMOUS" OUT OF "VENOMOUS SNAKES" DO NOT HAVE GENUINE TRUE LOVE FOR THESE AWSOME ANIMALS!!!!Bobby Posted by BwViper on May 5, 2002 venemoids I don't have enough experience with venemous species to back this theory but I do know that certain venoms such as those which contain myotoxin (found in rattlesnakes) break down tissue which dramatically aids in digestion. I know from experience, if you give a non-venemous reptile a large food item it takes them a long time to digest it and they remain sluggish and slightly ill looking until it is completely digested, which could take some time. On the other hand, non-venemous reptiles prefer smaller prey items and seem to have no problem with digestion as long as they have the proper basking area to receive their heat. In captive species, we fortunately can control the size of the prey we feed our herps but if a vemeoid were ever to escape, it would most likely starve to death, and we all know snakes do escape. Posted by Chameleon21 on April 23, 2002 What if..... Hi. Me again, the 14 yr old wannabe herpetologist. I was wondering, who thinks it would be right to remove the poison glands of a snake if the owner loves snakes but was allergic to anti-venoms. (By the way, it is not about me, just a hypothetical question.) I was just curious to know what people thought because this is a very contreversial topic. Also, who would treat a venomoid snake differently to a venomous snake? I bet you would all treat them with the same care and caution, so why inflict pain upon an innocent snake? Posted by ilove_bradybarr on April 6, 2002 I don't know what to think.... Hi everyone. I am a 14 year old girl and I dream of being a herpetologist one day. Please don't judge me by my age, my love of reptiles has been with me since I was a young child and my wanting a snake is not due to wanting to impress my friends. I came on this website to get advice from practised and experienced herpetologists and I am very interested in all this contreversy concerning venomoid snakes. I have little knowledge about the operation involved, and of the healing process. However I think that if the operation must be done, it should be done with a qualified vet to cause minimal trauma and pain on the snake. I also think that we must question one's reasons for owning a venomoid snake. For educational purposes it may be OK. HOWEVER if the reason for owning a venomoid snake is because the owner is afraid or not ready to tackle a venomous snake then having the venom glands removed would be cruel to the snake as it is not the snake's fault that the owner is not ready. And I am assumming that the same care and caution would be taken with a venomoid snake as with a venomous snake - so if you are careful then there should be no need to cause the snake pain. Posted by ilove_bradybarr on April 6, 2002 venamoids... well i really don't see anything wrong with just owning one, however, i think it is wrong to remove or impair the snake's venom glands, for whatever reason other than the snake would die if you didn't. owning them, i have no problem with. cheers ta-ta! :) Posted by IamLakshmana on March 19, 2002 Ah, venomoids. Everyone needs to have an opinion on the subject, and I have mine. The debate or controversy is so intense, that it seems that when I air my views on the subject I get hammered a lot by both sides of the fence. So, given the fact that this is nothing new for me, I will yet again note some of my observationas and feelings. At this point, many of you can skip the rest of my comments, because you either have read my posts on various forums, or you have read my article here on the SHHS site. First, I have been aquainted with a venomoid practitioner for most of my years keeping venomous. He is very experienced and accomplished with the surgery and he has the highest success rate I have heard of. Success can be measured in terms of effectiveness of such a surgery, and the post-operative health of the animal. Even with results like this, and having venomoid snakes always readily available to me, out of a couple hundred hot snakes I've maintained, only four of them were venomoid. Incidently, these venomoids were some of the healthiest captives I have ever owned, although as venomous snakes they were definitly handicapped. My position is as follows: venomoids are unnecessary to experienced venomous keepers. Creating venomoids from perfectly healthy hot snakes is a waste of the integrity of amazing creatures. While the amount of pain experienced by these snakes is minute and debatable at best, the surgury, while relatively minor, is still significant and can lead to complications. This is a risk that again is unnecessary for these snakes if the keeper has any experience at all with proper securty and husbandry practices. In addition, ethics are at question in this scenario as well. That being said, primarily from the "purist" side of me, the "ethics" involved with keeping hot snakes in the first place are relative to the limits of each individual. Some may not feel such an operation is a cruel or mean thing to do to a snake, especially when considering that these snakes are already captive, and therefore can be customized to fit within the guidlines of the captive environment in which they now reside. People will always come up with what they consider valid reasons for making, purchasing, and keeping venomoids. While I can come up with even more valid arguments against such ideas, I find I have certain convictions that, aside from my disinterest in venomoids, seem to require me to have a general tolerance for the choices of other keepers. To each his own. As long as the damage is not done to wild populations, the customization and alteration of captive snakes become now different than that of any other personal posession, because captive snakes are essentially personal posissions themselves, subject to the level of care and integrity allowed by the keeper. By very definition captive snakes are no longer wild snakes, and are therefore dead to nature as a whole. The quality of life for a captive snake with vary greatly according to the level of dedication and monetary resources supplied by each keeper, and the health and integrity of their snakes will reflect the strengths and weaknesses of the keeper. As anyone reading this can plainly see, I have attempted to take a more expanded approach to this controversy, simply because I have extensive experience with venomoids and unaltered snakes, and I have known many venomoid keepers, many of which I consider friends and outstanding reptile keepers as well. It is not a cut-and-dry issue or situation. Personal preference is one thing we all posess and value as members of a minority community and participants in such a unique hobby. The status of the hobby of keeping venomous snakes in the private sector relies heavily on the acceptance of our general society as a whole, despite differences in opinion and preference. Therefore I feel a responsibility to allow some to keep snakes in a different manner than I would myself, because diversity is important if freedom is important. I will attempt to educate those in need, and influence others by example. But if neither is a success, I am urged to remain tolerant of the choices of another keeper. In the end, if creating venomoids is truly a sin against nature, so must be keeping snakes in cages in the first place. We will all be judged accordingly, so I leave it up to the judge. Jaffo Posted by Jaffo on March 18, 2002 Venomoid's......hmmm, Carlessness....hmmm same definition. A bite by a venomoid will cause the same public reaction in the newspapers. then guess what, the people who didn't want to take the time, effort and pay the same dues of long hours of getting hit in the hand by a snake hook from your "MENTOR" for putting your hand in the wrong place, are going to take our hobby and livelihood away from us that have. I work with all four types of mambas, two of the three taipans kingcobras, etc, etc, etc. Our hobby is no different than any profession that involves risk of any kind. If an electrician has no idea what the hell he is doing, guess what, he will soon go there. If we take the time to learn what we are doing and doing it right every time there is no risk whatsoever!! there is no such thing as accidents in our field!!! Pay attention to what you are doing. As far as being used for educational purposes, if you are not qualified to work with a hot electrical line than you will probably not be teaching someone else about electricity. I think it is great that people want to help educate others, but let's all take a close look at our friend in Colorado 2 weeks ago, decided to show (educate) his neighbors about a 45 pound Burmese Python, it killed him, and the state killed the snake and made lots of unpleasant publicity. So take your time, learn, and learn responsibly and then keep anything that you are comfotable with. Oh and for goodness sake..everyone that keeps exotic herps........buy and keep your own serum!! Regards Posted by simplydontgetbit on February 25, 2002 It depends on why For the most part, I am against the idea of venomoids. However, I feel there are exceptions. If someone whats a venomoid snake so that they can own a "safe" hot snake, I think that is wrong. However, if there is a good reason, and the only one I can think of right now is for the use in educational programs, I don't have a problem with it, so long as it is properly done to minimize the trama on the snake. Posted by boiga_cyanea on February 24, 2002 punejab No offense or anything...I definitely agree with you. The way you worded it just kind of struck me as funny. Posted by ADAMS on February 24, 2002 Snake mouth surgery For a closeup view of snake mouth surgery, see: http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/irrigate.jpg. This is not venomoid surgery; this blacktailed rattlesnake has an injured and infected fang sheath that needed to be opened, drained, irrigated and stitched yesterday. Lidocane was injected as a nerve block, and then isoflourane was used for general anesthetic. I am lavaging the wound daily with dilute chlorhexadine and assessing the snake's comfort level; if he shows significant signs of continued discomfort he will be given butorphanol. I agreed with the vet's suggestion that challenging his system with more drugs might be detrimental so we did not give butorphanol immediately. Debrieding and stitching one injured fang sheath is not nearly as invasive or traumatic as the removal of two large salivary glands. This operation was done in a veterinary clinic with careful attention paid to anesthetic and pain management. But there is no question that there was very significant discomfort and trauma involved for the animal. Mouth tissues are very sensitive and delicate, and the veterinarian said that the swelling and discomfort will probably persist for two weeks. Anyone who would choose to inflict this kind of trauma on a snake for selfish reasons either does not fully understand what they are doing, or else their cruelty and selfishness is beyond any forgivable boundaries. http://www.anapsid.org/herppain2.html Posted by MSTT on February 22, 2002 Adam All I was saying, was that i dont agree with using a venomoid in educational use. I think you read the one before the one I fixed, as you see, I have about four of them on here where I was trying to fix it. What I was trying to say was, dont use a fake snake, use the real deal. Thats why I said to get in some kind of protective manner where people dont get hurt but leaves you WIDE open! Posted by punejab on February 22, 2002 Paying the price Nikki, you don't keep venomous snakes for your own safety. You keep them because YOU want to. If you really want to be safe, don't keep them at all, or wait to keep them until you have acquired the professional level tools and skills you need to do it safely. That is the responsible approach to owning venomous snakes. Inflicting major invasive surgery on an animal so you can have the pleasure of owning it without taking any risks is abusive and unethical. I have been putting in a lot of days this month at the vet clinic and watching/participating firsthand in surgical procedures, most of which are less invasive than the removal of integral structures like venom glands. We are only performing necessary procedures for the animals' health, but they are obviously traumatic and painful even with the use of appropriate local and general anesthetics and analgesics. Cutting into a snake and making it hurt and bleed and crawl around with obvious stiffness and pain during the recovery period leaves you with a gut level understanding of what it is you are doing to these animals not to heal them but to harm and cripple them. If you are willing to do this to a snake just so you can keep one before you're ready, I think you should consider being there for the surgery and recovery period to see the price that the snake pays in flesh, blood and pain for your impatience. It is not a trivial one. I do not believe that it is right to make a snake suffer because you aren't ready to keep one that isn't crippled. If you can get to Florida, I'll be glad to show you what I know of handling these animals safely and share some tools with you. If not, perhaps there is a volunteer program in a zoo near you? Posted by MSTT on February 22, 2002 UHHH WHAT? punejab, your last comment on "educational use" would make a good "Deep Thought by Jack Handy" that used to come on Saturday Night Live. Posted by ADAMS on February 22, 2002 venomoid Me again, for the people that own a venomoid. I don't see anything wrong with adopting one, but sure the hell not going to have them removed. To be honest with ya, if I was walking through the woods and saw a venomous snake that had a sign thrown across its shoulder saying " venom retired, can't eat", I would probably adopt him/her myself. See thats one reason i can think of about venomoids, snakes do escape sometimes, i know "shhhhhh! don't tell my wife, she will kick my bootie!" but when you have a venomoid that gets loose and gets back into the wild, how is he/she going to eat or defend its self. oh yeah, almost forgot, for the education part. Using venomoids for educational use thats just wussing out, all you have to do is put yourself in a square glass box big enough for you to move around with ease and that way nobody can get hurt, and if you mess up, at least you got bit with some STYLE! Hope you never get bit though. Posted by punejab on February 22, 2002 venomoid Me again, for the people that own a venomoid. I don't see anything wrong with adopting one, but sure the hell not going to have them removed. To be honest with ya, if I was walking through the woods and saw a venomous snake that had a sign thrown across its shoulder saying " venom retired, can't eat", I would probably adopt him/her myself. See thats one reason i can think of about venomoids, snakes do escape sometimes, i know "shhhhhh! don't tell my wife, she will kick my bootie!" but when you have a venomoid that gets loose and gets back into the wild, how is he/she going to eat or defend its self. oh yeah, almost forgot, for the education part. Using venomoids for educational use, all you have to do is put yourself in a square glass box big enough for you to move around with ease and that way nobody can get hurt, and if you mess up, at least you got bit with some STYLE! Hope you never get bit though. Posted by punejab on February 22, 2002 venomoid Me again, for the people that own a venomoid. I don't see anything wrong with adopting one, but sure the hell not going to have them removed. To be honest with ya, if I was walking through the woods and saw a venomous snake that had a sign thrown across its shoulder saying " venom retired, can't eat", I would probably adopt him/her myself. See thats one reason i can think of about venomoids, snakes do escape sometimes, i know "shhhhhh! don't tell my wife, she will kick my bootie!" but when you have a venomoid that gets loose and gets back into the wild, how is he/she going to eat or defend its self. oh yeah, almost forgot, for the education part. Using venomoids for educational use, all you have to do is put yourself in a square glass box big enough for you to move around with ease and that way nobody can get hurt, and if you mess up, at least you got bit with some STYLE! Hope you never get bit though. Punejab Posted by punejab on February 22, 2002 venomoid Me again, for the people that own a venomoid. I don't see anything wrong with adopting one, but sure the hell not going to have them removed. To be honest with ya, if I was walking through the woods and saw a venomous snake that had a sign thrown across its shoulder saying " venom retired, can't eat", I would probably adopt him/her myself. See thats one reason i can think of about venomoids, snakes do escape sometimes, i know "shhhhhh! don't tell my wife, she will kick my bootie!" but when you have a venomoid that gets loose and gets back into the wild, how is he/she going to eat or defend its self. oh yeah, almost forgot, for the education part. Using venomoids for educational use, all you have to do is put yourself in a square glass box big enough for you to move around with ease and that way nobody can get hurt, and if you mess up, at least you got bit with some STYLE! Hope you never get bit though. Punejab Posted by punejab on February 22, 2002 venomoid Me again, for the people that own a venomoid. I don't see anything wrong with adopting one, but sure the hell not going to have them removed. To be honest with ya, if I was walking through the woods and saw a venomous snake that had a sign thrown across its shoulder saying " venom retired, can't eat", I would probably adopt him/her myself. See thats one reason i can think of about venomoids, snakes do escape sometimes, i know "shhhhhh! don't tell my wife, she will kick my bootie!" but when you have a venomoid that gets loose and gets back into the wild, how is he/she going to eat or defend its self. oh yeah, almost forgot, for the education part. Using venomoids for educational use, all you have to do is put yourself in a square glass box big enough for you to move around with ease and that way nobody can get hurt, and if you mess up, at least you got bit with some STYLE! Hope you never get bit though. Punejab Posted by punejab on February 22, 2002 Paying the price Nikki, you don't keep venomous snakes for your own safety. You keep them because YOU want to. If you really want to be safe, don't keep them at all, or wait to keep them until you have acquired the professional level tools and skills you need to do it safely. That is the responsible approach to owning venomous snakes. Inflicting major invasive surgery on an animal so you can have the pleasure of owning it without taking any risks is abusive and unethical. I have been putting in a lot of days this month at the vet clinic and watching/participating firsthand in surgical procedures, most of which are less invasive than the removal of integral structures like venom glands. We are only performing necessary procedures for the animals' health, but they are obviously traumatic and painful even with the use of appropriate local and general anesthetics and analgesics. Cutting into a snake and making it hurt and bleed and crawl around with obvious stiffness and pain during the recovery period leaves you with a gut level understanding of what it is you are doing to these animals not to heal them but to harm and cripple them. If you are willing to do this to a snake just so you can keep one before you're ready, I think you should consider being there for the surgery and recovery period to see the price that the snake pays in flesh, blood and pain for your impatience. It is not a trivial one. I do not believe that it is right to make a snake suffer because you aren't ready to keep one that isn't crippled. If you can get to Florida, I'll be glad to show you what I know of handling these animals safely and share some tools with you. If not, perhaps there is a volunteer program in a zoo near you? Posted by MSTT on February 22, 2002 Last comment I think we have beat this subject to death. It is obvious that those of you who are against venomoids will always be against them. Those who are in favor will always be in favor. For the most part I have not yet seen a single person in here who has kept an open mind about this subject. It is much the same with gun control. Oh well. I think if God came down and said venomoids are a good idea you would all tell him he was wrong. I shall keep my one venomoid and be happy with it. I will also keep my venomous and be happy with them. Life goes on and I guess it is best not to try to upset the group. So be it. Just want to add my venomoid is very healty and I think quite content. I do wonder of those who are so devoutly against it, how many have ever owned one that was properly done in a sterile enviroment using the proper surgical methods while the snake was still quite young and captive born. Happy herping to all. Posted by vette on February 22, 2002 On training others.... Vette, With all due respect, I must take exception with your comments and justification of venomoids for training purposes. I have certified over 800 animal control officers, law enforcement officers, and other emergency response personnel during the past 15 years. All programs utilise venomous specimens. Not only has there never been an accident, there has never even been a close call. This is due to proper planning and set-up. If a trainee does not exhibit the required skill during the early portion of the program, then he/she does not go on to venomous reptiles and does not receive their certification. I do not lower my standards and not everyone passes. Anything less is of little value. ~Holmes Posted by Holmes on February 22, 2002 venomoid I understand that everyday we alter species natrual bodies to our benefit. To me, it is honestly not worth it to own a venomoid because for one, its still dangerous,and if i was 3 or 4 years old, ran into show my mommy what i found outside, and she sees it knowing that this species of snake is deadly, shes gonna do something about it. If it was me, id call someone to remove it, but most people just kill them on their own. Personaly, I have worked with many species of snakes, and i think you can find better "pet" snakes without having a venomoid. I dont believe the public, and the neighborhood would understand that it can't hurt you anymore, but all they know about this certain species of snake is that it has killed people and very dangerous. Im not telling people to not own a venomoid, but if you are gonna have snakes that produce venome, you might as well let them have their venome, and milk it for medical purposes, but keep it in a very secure and confined area, do your research and studies on it, but don't bring a real, or even non venomous snake out, or let the public know about it, because you probably wouldn't get great reviews. If your gonna own a venomous snake, use the venom for the better and not the worst. Posted by Stacy on February 21, 2002 venomoid As far as using a venomoid for teaching someone the proper was of handling a venomous snake you can always use a non-venomous snake with a bad attitude. There are plenty of non vens that never calm down and quit striking that would fill that nitch. I also belive that the "newbies" are not the ones who get bit. Everytime I hear about a bite it is a seasoned veteran. The more you handle them the better your chances are of getting bit. The new guy is probably much more carefull because he/she is more afraid of the snake or getting bit, where the seasoned vet is more comfortable and slips up. Not attacking anyone just another .02....Eric Posted by EricD on February 21, 2002 My Opinion MSTT, it is not really a matter of convenience, it is for my own safety. I’m sure the people in this town would love nothing more than to see the headline “16 year old girl almost dies after bite from lethal snake, bylaw to be put in place on Monday”. Even if I came nowhere near death, that headline would still shock people and scare the he!! outta them. Now, I don’t know of any other herpers in this town but I’m sure there are a few, and why should my inexperience cause them to loose their herps? This town being a retirement community, the only thing they’d allow in here after a headline like that would be cats and dogs (if that!). I would prefer to learn the skills first and avoid getting a venomoid because for the most part it is a waste. I would treat a venomoid the same way as if it were still venomous. As I mentioned before it is almost impossible to receive the training in handling these snakes and watching Steve Irwin doesn’t exactly help, and I’m certainly not gonna follow his examples lol. For now I’ll stick to rear fanged snakes but when it comes to a later date when I would like a cobra or a large powerful viper I will probably start with a venomoid, unless I have enough trust in myself. I respect your opinion, but as far as I’m concerned a serious herper has the choice as to whether they choose to own a venomoid or not. I do not support those people who go out and buy venomoids just to look cool in front of their friends, those people are idiots, and they shouldn’t be allowed to own herps period. On another note I have noticed people mentioning roundups. I agree with them, instead of the herpers dividing into 2 sides why don’t we focus on those rattlesnake roundups and the trade of their skins and such? Those acts are completely horrible and there is no reason for it. There is no benefit to the animal, the environment, only to those people who do it. Things like that should be made illegal! Instead of attacking those who keep venomoids, attack those morons who go there to slaughter those snakes and destroy the environment! Venomoids may not be acceptable to some of you but the ones I have seen have been healthy and there is no study that I have ever heard of that shows they live shorter lives. I agree the fact that cutting chunks out of a snakes head is upsetting but if it will teach me and fellow amateur herpers (if theres any here) the skills in handling these animals not only will it benefit us but it will benefit the herp community because there will be fewer accidents and herps won’t get any worse a rep. That means less laws and more conservation put towards these snakes. Although I do feel bad about having to own one, it’s for the best interest in the snake and myself. Who knows what would happen to the poor snake if an event occurred where I got bit and didn’t live… Posted by Rattler2001 on February 21, 2002 Dangerous rhino vipers Nikki, all venomous snakes are dangerous. But with the proper safety equipment, rhinos are very easy to handle and work with. They are generally very good on a hook, easy to shove into a tube and they are neither fast moving nor particularly aggressive. They do have a fast strike, but it takes quite a bit of provocation to get them to launch one. I don't think there is any good excuse to cut large chunks out of a snake's head so that you can keep it as a pet without the proper safety skills and tools. I sympathize with the fact that these may be hard to acquire in your area, but this does not give you the right to inflict pain and mutilation on a snake so that you can enjoy keeping it with less risk and trouble. It is not acceptable to make your snakes pay in blood and pain the price that you are not willing to pay in time and effort. I don't mind respecting people's opinions, but don't ever ask me to respect the act of mutilating a snake for your convenience. And don't delude yourself that even a good quality operation done by a veterinarian under proper anesthetic is a pain-free procedure. You can't keep an animal at a surgical plane of anesthesia until the wounds heal, and most vets don't use much (if anything) in the way of post-op pain meds. Let's not even talk about the surgeries done by non-vets, which are absolutely barbaric. I spend a fairly substantial amount of time doing veterinary procedures on venomous snakes ranging from basic exams to surgery, and the recovery period after invasive surgery is definitely not painless and can have serious effects on the animal's general health, behavior, blood chemistry, immune system, etc, for an extended period of time. Don't try to kid yourself that it's a harmless procedure; it's not. It's seriously invasive surgery on a delicate and sensitive area. It hurts and stresses the animal and offers no medical benefits. It is a procedure that is harmful, not helpful. There is just no excuse for it. If you cannot keep an animal properly without cutting pieces off of it first, leave the animal alone. Owning a venomoid does not necessarily make you pathetic or a bad herper, but it does mark you as someone who knowingly inflicts pain and trauma on their pets for their own convenience. You can decide for yourself what should be the proper adjectives to describe somebody who is willing to make that kind of choice. Posted by MSTT on February 21, 2002 my own personal take - i have kept venomous for several years and have never been bitten, thankfully - my feelings on venomoids relate to species that i would love to keep but just have too much fear and respect for as they are naturally - specifically i would love to have an albino monacled cobra, but would never have one if it wasnt a venomoid - why? because i dont have the confidence in my own personal immune system (???) not to mention my lack of confidence in my local hospitals - accidents happen guys, and my eyelash viper isnt likely to kill me if something does, but a cobra or a rhino viper isnt such a sure bet - if i can do my part through my friends and neghbors to educate them using a venomoid, and get some personal satisfaction and enjoyment out of keeping them, why shouldnt i? they created the surgery for a reason - we as educated herpers need to embrace this technological advancement, if we dont its akin to the general public not accepting snakes in general cuz theyre skeered - if you personally do not want to keep venomoids then dont, but there are plenty of surgical procedures that are done on snakes (homing devices, corrective surgeries, venom extraction, etc etc etc) that isnt even addressed anymore because of how commonly accepted they are - take some of that energy thats being used negatively about venomoids and use it to generate some positive attitudes towrds herps in the general public - thanks - Posted by rion_x on February 21, 2002 JWarren It appears some of my most respected aquaintances hold similar thoughts on this issue as I do. While I do not wish to impose my veiw upon others, when their irresponsible actions cause my freedom harm I do have issue. For example, I will never side with those individuals that keep venomoids because they want to keep hots to create an image without being genuine about the hobby. These are the same types of individuals that do not have the intelligence or skill to be in the hobby. A case comes to mind in which an individual gets tagged and unbelievably considers getting his entire venomous collection altered rather than admit his irresponsibility. Posted by JWarren on February 21, 2002 Venomoid/Venomous I voted no. I personally will keep both venomous and venomoid. Sure I don't have any currently but I know many people who do have both. I know many people who preach that they are against venomoids yet after they find out I am not against them, they admit that neither are they. IMO as long as it was performed under humane and sanitary conditions then it's ok. I think they are good for training or aquiring the skills needed to deal with the lethal hots. I don't think that the herp community should look down upon those that keep them, instead help teach them the skills to handle a hot and then they are less likely to buy venomoids. There is no one in my area whom is into herps that I know of and so I am on my own. Because I keep herps, I have showed this small community that herps are not all that bad but they still don't love them like I do. I take very good care of my boids and all my other herps and just because someone owns a venomoid it does not mean they are pathetic or a bad herper. I for one would not own a venomoid of a species that was not lethal. I really love rhino vipers, and was told I should try a venomoid first because they are very dangerous. Not only good training but good for the herp community as well. We all know how the media makes headlines out of misfortunes with boids and venomous snakes. Instead of jumping into something before I know what I'm doing I think I should get experience from a venomoid, this way I avoid a fatal mistake and becoming the next headline for them to make us herpers look bad. A few people have mentioned that few of the people who voted no have posted anything. Has anyone stopped and thought about it? Why would they wanna post thier opinion if they are going to be attacked? I respect everyone's opinions as I expect others to respect mine. Nikki Posted by Rattler2001 on February 20, 2002 I have found a reason In all the previous posting I have seen several people asking for a legitimate purpose for having venomoids. I just found one quite by accident. Last night I was doing a training session for our local fire department. I was teaching them how to handle large snakes in case they are encountered during a rescue situation. I was showing them what equipment they already have on their trucks that can aid them in this endeavor. After over an hour of working with large boids one of them asked about the posibility of them encountering venomous snakes. I explained that there was a very real possibility because I knew of several people that owned them in the area. They asked if I could show them how to handle them also. We took a short break and I ran home and got a few snakes that I own that are venomous ( and a venomoid ). I carefully instructed them on the proper tools to use and soon realized that as a handler our specialized hooks and gloves are not something that can be easily be replaced by something already on the truck. I was allowing a few of them to attempt to capture a wdb (venomoid) when one of them slipped and the snake struck out. The fireman was not hit but could have easily been. He was definately in range. None of the firemen knew that the snake was a venomoid so they were a bit shaken by the incident. I think through the entire session they developed some skill and should be able to handle most situations, but they did realize that the tools we use are almost irreplacable and have decided to aquire a hook and some better gloves along with a good set of tongs. My point here is I will always take a venomoid to any future training sessions where inexperienced people are in need of training on handling venomous snakes. Not saying it is always right or justified but this is one place where it is appropriate. Posted by vette on February 20, 2002 Venomoid Taboo I have done some volunteer work at a venomoid serpenterium and brought some of these snakes home to take off display and provide some privacy hopefully to restore there appetite. I have shared some of these cases with my dad. His interest was only because of mine. So I explained to him about the controversy with venomoids and that help was a hard question to ask for with out getting lectured on animal morels. So I showed this forum and others and was happy to keep his interest. My Dad read some of these comments and brought up a interesting question. Please keep in mind he's not a herper but his son is, so he thinks my Hots should be venomoid too. He wondered why nobody's offered up any solutions to the digestion problem that can occur with venomoid snakes. My father suggested I try injecting a small amount pineapple juice in the rodents before feeding to aid in digestion. I laughed, but not at him because he had a point and he made me think. I own 3-5 venomoids myself but only through adoption. The rest is hot (23 total) the way God intended , Darwin predicted and Mother Nature made possible. I don't think I would ever sell any of mine to be fixed,clipped or altered. I don't like politics when help is needed. Not when it comes to reptiles and privileged information. Consider a solution and not a lecture. The venomoids that are out there need our help and are here now and will be living and dieing with or with out our help. Well I'm off to contemplate the chemical make up of pineapple juice. Snakes are poeple too badatrox Posted by badatrox on February 19, 2002 And Furthermore... The more I think about this subject, the more the arguments against it come to mind. - In many cases, venom aids in digestion of food and the lack of it results in poor health and death of the animals in question. – I would imagine that in many cases, the procedure involves cruelty and causes much pain and stress to the animal. - Venomoids as educational tools are misleading and totally unnecessary; video and photos are much better substitutes – With the thousands of beautiful and unique naturally non-venomous species, sub-species, and morphs…why would one seek to mutilate and destroy the very thing that makes venomous snakes so special? – It has been shown that so called “venomoids” can still have the ability to inject venom either by the healing of severed venom ducts over time or by improper or inadequate procedures. Therefore, venomoid snakes should always be treated as venomous. But by definition they are venomoids…VOID OF VENOM. What happens when the unsuspecting venomoid purchaser receives the wrong specimen of the same species by accident that has had no such surgery…or to the free-handler whose cape cobra’s venom ducts are slowly healing and reconnecting. There is currently a photo on kingsnake under the VENOMOUS classifieds, of a man free-handling a venomoid black mamba. First of all, why is this snake under the venomous classifieds if it has no venom. Second, it seems to me that there is a lot of liability in a seller’s labeling a serpent “venomoid” given the nature of a snake’s capacity to regenerate the ability to inject venom and the nature of the procedure itself. WHAT REGULATORY ENTITY ACTUALLY DETERMINES A VENOMOID NON-VENOMOUS? Third, it reasons that websites that would allow sellers of venomoids to post their ads are subjecting themselves to the same liability as the sellers as well as promoting non-ethical, cruel, and unreasonable treatment of animals. I feel that this site should no longer allow venomoid sellers to post. And that’s all I have to say about that. Posted by ADAMS on February 18, 2002 Am I missing the question Is't the question whether you are for or against buying/owning a venomoid? Seems the debate is whether is is ok to create a venomoid. Maybe buying them creates a demand for creating them but maybe the demand comes from creating them. Obviously there are several of them available and people are buying them. Can they really all be sadistic monsters who only want to flaunt them and exhibit their macho attitude? Some how I don't think so. Maybe those of us who have some experience with venomous need to share and educate people that would be inclined to purchase a venomoid. In many cases over the last few years I have seen many of us belittle those newbies who ask what we feel are stupid questions. We give them snide answers or tell them to go read some article. When I first started I was actually afraid to ask a question because I didn't want to sound stupid. It may be in our best interest to try to help out the new commer to hots, even to the extent of finding out where they live and offering to mentor where possible. If we do that some of the people who feel that their only option is to buy a vonomoid because of lack of skill will become more confident and more willing to accept the snakes as they are. My first encounter with a hot snake left me trembling and wondering if I made the right decision. After working through some of the obsticles of handling and controlling these animals I now feel much more confident. If we really want people to stop what many call mutilation then we need to educate those who desire these animals. My point here is that we shouldn't call the kettle black if we could have helped to avoid it from tarnishing. I have made it a point to try to help several fellow herpers deal with hots since I had my eyes opened by my own experiences here and in other venomous forums and chats. I say god help the snakes and we help the herpers. thanks Posted by vette on February 18, 2002 Against Venomoids! To me, the most awesome characteristic of a venomous snake is its venom and the venom delivery apparatus. I am constantly amazed and intrigued when I think of the millions of years that went into the specific evolution of their efficient modified saliva and hollow, hypodermic needle-like teeth. Venomous snakes, I feel, have a certain dignity that should not be cut away with a knife under sedation. Posted by ADAMS on February 18, 2002 Everyone has a right to do what they want in their own homes... One argument I hear a lot in support of venomoids is that everyone should have the right to do whatever they like in their own homes with their own pets, and nobody has a right to forbid a pet owner to do as he pleases with his living property. While this certainly seems to be a popular way of thinking, keep in mind that if you follow this argument to its logical conclusion, we cannot object to such practices as rattlesnake roundups either - after all, they are only torturing and mutilating snakes that are their own legal property. No, I don't think "live and let live" is an argument that cuts much ice here. These kinds of practices are thoroughly unethical and should not be tolerated or afforded any measure of acceptance or respect in our community. Posted by MSTT on February 17, 2002 vette and ignorabilis Vette, I agree with you on the fact that is your right to own a venomoid if it is done in a sterile humane fashion and that we should stick togeather. The big problem is I realy don't think that most of these are used for anything more than to drag around and show off and when there is a hot bite from a so called venomoid it is not going to help any of us and neither is the kid out there showing off. Most of these people hurt the right to keep reptiles. Ignorabilis, It appears as I said below that no one actually uses or needs these for education. It is also obvious that none of the buyers of or "makers" of these snakes has any thing to say that will hold water or they would have posted it. So far there are 184 no's in the survey yet none of the no posts are from any keepers other than one or two who have taken one in out of kindness to the snake or maybe the educational reason but no one uses them for that aparently. Where are all the other 180 people. I'm sorry if I keep pushing for a legitimate reason for makeing and buying these animals but it all just seems rather selfish to me....Eric Posted by EricD on February 17, 2002 One more opinion Okay I have read through all the previous posts and feel something is missing here. I honestly feel that each person has to make his or her own decision as to what they wish to keep. If any of us decides to keep a venomoid snake it is something we have to live with. With the rest of the general public putting us down for any snake we keep, shouldn't we be sticking together as herpers and try doing positive things to promote our passion. We seem to do more to bash others for their practices than the public does. In many cases we give them the little knowledge they have to use against us. In light of the recent incident in Colorado I am sure we will all come under very close scrutiny and the animals we keep will be classified as dangerous. Lets not fight amongst ourself and join to promote a positive image for all herpers. If you want venomous it is your right to have them. If you wnat a venomoid it is your right if it is done in a sterile, humane fashion. I have seen many venomoid that have gone on to have very long lives and have not had any medical concerns. They have even gone on to produce offspring. Lets kill this issue and promote good safe herping and try to avoid any further instances like happened in CO. Happy herping to all. Posted by vette on February 15, 2002 why i vote no The only time or reason I would obtain a venomoid snake would be strictly for educational purposes. However for ones own private collection I would never consider obtaining a venomoid snake. Posted by Ignorabilis on February 14, 2002 For What Purpose? I understand the wish to be safe when handling these animals, but people's safety does not warrant injuring and/or crippling an animal, any animal, not just a snake. Snakes use their venom for more than just catching and killing their prey. Like spiders, many snakes use their venom to aid in the digestive processes - very much like our saliva helps us to digest simple sugars and such. If a person does not feel confident enough to handle a hot snake, he or she should not handle it. I see no reason to remove venom glands for this reason. Handling snakes in general, and hots in particular takes experience and expertise. One should not harm snakes by removing their venom glands just so some yahoo who doesn't know anything about snake handling can play with his neat new pet. Posted by StormSong on February 11, 2002 Oh the Emotions Is it the venom that makes the snake or the snake that makes the venom? Just wondering becasue some folks feel that the snake is ruined if it is venomoid. And honestly, if done properly you can't tell, until you're bitten. And by properly I mean, by a highly credited vet with the health of the snake as first priority. Yes, yes I know that venomoids don't have as good of health as the others but please just look at the point and not nit pick at my thought. I disagree with fixing them for the "protection" of the handler because that is pathetic. If you want a rattlersnake or whatever take the time to care for it as it occurs in nature. As for education I work in a venomous lab at a University and ALL of the snakes are "HOT". And there have been "0" bites. I could understand possibly fixing a snake to be legal in your city but I would reccomend moving instead. I don't currently keep venomous snakes but intend to get some in the near future and have in the past and none have been venomoid. I am willing to accept a venomoid but would NOT have the procedure done on my own snakes. Thats my two cents and you can now think what you will. Oh yeah before you hang the venomoid keepers lets hang the round up people first eh?:) Posted by CollegeRattler on February 10, 2002 Venomoid I have been handling hot snakes for over 30 years as a hobby but only recently heard of this vemonoid crap....The only logical purpose to do this to a snake would be so that some candyass phony could show off his snake handling techniques to his ignorant cronies when in reality he is terrified and far too inexperienced to possess any reptile....daddygreek Posted by Daddygreek on February 10, 2002 Correction The phrase "in need of a good home" belongs immediately after "already venomoid snake". Posted by KingCobraFan on February 10, 2002 Post #2 MOUNTAINMAN, I totally agree with you. I have nothing against keepers who take in an already venomoid snake, but I can't begin to display my contempt toward people who actively seek them out. My .02. Posted by KingCobraFan on February 8, 2002 I'm AGAINST!!!!!!!! If you don't know what you're doing, you don't need it in the first place.Why take away there beauty,pride,and sacredness? Posted by MOUNTAINMAN on February 7, 2002 Venomoid & education I keep hearing people say that they can be used for education but there seems to be a lack of any one who does. So far everyone here who does educational programs uses the real thing. It is becoming more and more obvious that the term education is only an excuse given by those who want a venomoid but don't have the need whatsoever....Eric Posted by EricD on February 6, 2002 Venomoids Hi, I'm a new member. I'm an italian vet and I like very much venumous snakes, even if we can't keep them here in Italy. I voted no, but I'm against surgical removal of glòands in venomous snakes: if you are a good snake keeper, you shuold have the experience for keeping a "full" vemomous snake, if you're not, it's better to you not to keep it!that's what I think. Posted by Andreasnake on February 5, 2002 Interesting comments! I do educational presentations and see virtually no value in a venomoid. I keep 15 hot snakes, four of which are very calm and can be trusted not to freak out when handled in front of a crowd. Two of them, a Puff Adder and an old Timber Rattlesnake can be put on the floor or table unrestrained. It is a matter of knowing your animals (and keeping an eye out for unusual, ill-temper). I say that the venomoid process is intended for those who want to short cut the learning process. They don't want to pay their dues. Would I take in a venomoid? Of course. Particulary if it were a species I happened to be interested in. Would I create a venomoid? Not only no, but HELL NO. If ya can't take the heat, leave the kitchen for those who can. f Posted by filthy on February 4, 2002 Venomoids. I agree with TomT that an already altered snake should be looked after and cared for with the love and affection that all snakes deserve. I would just like to see any further mutilation prevented. Posted by Snakebitelove on February 3, 2002 Venomoids I gave a "No" answer to the survey. I've had the opportunity to keep a venomoid Red Diamondback that was given to me. I didn't have the surgery performed, it was done a long time before I received the animal. Based on many of the responses here, I should have chopped her head off because she was damaged goods. On the other side of the debate, I would not pay to have the surgery performed on a snake, nor would I buy a snake that had been "altered" unless it were the only one available for a breeding program, or some other special circumstance. This is a really touchy subject, and I see venom gland/duct removal surgery on the same level as pulling the canines or claws from big cats.... If you can't stand the "heat" don't mess with venomous snakes.... Leave them the way God intended for them to be, venomous.... but don't discard a venomoid just because someone didn't have the same love of the animal that you have. Tom Posted by TomT on February 2, 2002 Venomoids. No one has, or should be given the right to mutilate any animal. If you dont have the expertise, the experience and the love needed to handle venomous snakes, don't ! If you are in awe of the beauty and the power of highly venomous reptiles this feeling should wane if you know that the animal is no longer dangerous. I would be more in favour of of castrating any individual performing these operations. Criminalise it ! Posted by Snakebitelove on February 2, 2002 Venomoids for education I'm not certain that venomoids in a classroom are actually a good idea for education. If it's not handled properly (treated like a venomous snake), the kids can get some very wrong ideas from this like, "it's okay to hold a rattlesnake the same way as a king snake". Even if the verbal message given is the opposite, kids will retain what they see and touch better than what adults tell them. If what they see and touch is a venomoid rattler or cobra, what message are they really walking away with? I use venomous snakes in my educational presentations, and everything I do sends the clear message that they must be properly treated with caution and respect. Not handled carelessly for fun, and not abused as "pets" or ego-props for kids (of all ages) who think a pet venomous snake is "cool". I use securely locked display cages and do not permit anyone but myself and trained assistants to put their hands on the cages. If the snakes are to be handled during a presentation, there is a physical safety barrier and additional handlers with hooks and tongs between the snake and the audience. I think that these precautions are realistic, effective and send the right educational message. Posted by MSTT on February 1, 2002 Well here goes Ok Just for the record I am a keeper of non-venomous snakes and hot snakes. I love them all and do not want to change any of them. I must admit that I do own a venomoid western diamond back. This snake was owned by another person who decided that keeping it was not in the best interest of maintaining his marriage. I was told of it from a coworker and I called the person. He explained that he had it surgically altered becasue he thought his wife would let him keep it but discovered that she now hated it even more because it occupied more of his time. He told me that he was trying to give it away but no one seemed to want it feeling that the process could become undone at any time. He also informed me that he was thinking about putting the snake in the freezer to appease his wife. I told him I would take it. I have had it about 8 months now and still treat it like my other hots but feed it prekilled at all times. I am not even sure if it is actually a venomoid but is does have a fantastic personality for a western diamond back. This snake is doing just fine and eats at the same rate as my venomous and defecates at the same rate also. I am not in favoer or nesessarily against it. I feel it is a matter of personal choice. I don't tell people how to run their lives. If you make the decision to have a snake altered you have to live with that decision. I may not agree but will not put anyone down for their decision. There are to many people out there trying to put me and all of us down we don't need to do it our selves. Just my opinion, Posted by vettesherps on January 31, 2002 Venomoid History has proven that humans get a thrill from keeping powerful and deadly animals. To show our control over the world, we modify what we dont like, (Venomoids, de-clawed big cats etc.) However, The keeping of venomoid snakes could prove usefull because they could be used as mascotts, teaching aids, and public education tools without the danger. And a good way for a novice herper to get into hots would be to get a venomoid because they could make a mistake and the consiquences would not make headlines and reflect badly on the herpetocultural community. The sad thing is that the snake has to have the surgery to remove the very thing that makes it unique. Just so some novice twit can impress his buddies. Posted by newggtongs on January 31, 2002 Venomoids-count me against! If you check my answer below, you can see by the date that it was not given in the context of this question. I am against the creation of venomoids but would not put a snake to death because it had been altered. I also would not give a venomoid any more opportunity to bite me than I would an unaltered snake for the same reason that I do not play "Russian Roulette" with a military issue .45 (I am sure that not everyone will understand the CERTAIN stupidity of this!). Given that there are venomoids in existence, I could understand them being used for educational purposes. BUT! I do not support their being created (as venomoids) for that purpose. Sorry for any confusion raised by my other answer which was typed over a year ago. Karl Posted by Buzztail1 on January 31, 2002 Venomoid I do not own any "HOT" reptiles but I do love them thats why im a member of the site. I would not alter any reptile ever. But a venomoid snake used to teach kids about these beautiful animals could help to stop the round ups and other horrible practices. Education is the way and a venomoid snake in a 7th grade classroom might do the trick. Posted by Kev on January 31, 2002 Venomoids My opinion in this question is that it is on acceptable to buy/own or sell venomoid snakes. In Holland the country were I life is it illigal and it should be illigal world wide. Keep animals the way there are. Posted by MrTaipan on January 31, 2002 venomoid Hi agin all. punejab I couldn't agree with you more on what's the purpose. I'd like t see some good input from the keepers, dealers and "doctors" that do this but we can leave the screaming match to the k. Bill H said it right in "there's never been a need only a want". And last as TT pointed out it's not quite the same as spying your dog or cat. Hell it ain't even close. If you have a female dog or cat mongrel that is out and about your going to end up with offspring sooner or later that nobody wants and end up at the pound. The bottom line is these snakes are being made for the money and sold to people who just want something to show their friends how cool they are......Eric Posted by EricD on January 31, 2002 Venomoids are the worst I agree with TT's Jan.31 post (spay/neuter vs venomoids) 100%. Venomoids make for "safer keepers" only in that they provide an out for people unwilling to gain the knowledge/experience to work with the real thing. A venomoid is nothing more than a fake venomous snake, altered at the reptile's expense. No need or want for an altered animal? There's never been a "need" for one, only a "want". Sincerely, Bill Huseth Posted by KingCobraFan on January 31, 2002 Spaying and neutering is not comparable Once again, the argument has been raised that because it is considered acceptable to spay and neuter mammals, it is okay to surgically alter any animal for human convenience. The fact is that spaying and neutering is part of responsible pet ownership for many mammal species, and the reasons are veterinary. The procedure has many health benefits for small mammals as well as preventing the suffering of unwanted young animals being born which could not be properly cared for. Removing a snake's venom glands has no health benefits for the snake - it is purely a matter of added fun and convenience for the owner, who can then handle it carelessly. There is no comparison. Posted by MSTT on January 31, 2002 brainomoids most highly venomous snakes can be free handled with out being bitten. So It is a useless operation. but if you want to skip 30 years of study and jump right in without any idea maybe a venomoid is for you but the ranger issuing a permit should still require the person to be skilled before giving the permit. Becuase It makes a person wonder whats up with someone that buys a venomid? Are they all there? my 2 cents bill Posted by Bud on January 31, 2002 venomoids I say that if you can find one and you anre sure that it is a venomoid that they are great to learn how a certin spieace acts the probims is that they can always become venoms agian Posted by bass007 on January 31, 2002 venomoids What's the purpose of having a venomous snake if you take the freaking glands out! Also, to the comment by Eric D, I would like to see a yelling match go on. Posted by punejab on January 30, 2002 Venomoid I think that not only is it usefull for education. But, also for the education of a venomous keeper. Wouldn't it not only be safer, but, wiser to learn the habits of a new species that couldn't kill? I don't want to start a big argument, but, just how many of the WC's do you think make it through the whole import process. How many do you think are lost to an uneducated and fearful keeper. Do you have your dog fixed? Is your ferret fixed? How many of you have "domesticated" animals that have been surgically altered. The point I would like to make is that anytime we bring an animal into our world, we alter that animal and not necessarily for the good. And I think that it is a little hypocritical to say it's OK in one instance but not another. Focusing on something that I find a little trivial, instead of on bigger and much more detrimental subject. Roundups, importers, captive programs, venom research, and safer keepers would all be much better subjects for our efforts. Venomoid or Not? Well, how about safer keepers, better laws, better education, better propagation. It all equals better animals. Instead of in-fighting and arguing, let's work on no need or want for an altered animal. Off my soapbox ;-) Posted by Amabilis on January 30, 2002 Venomoids no thanks!! Venomoids is an abomination! Posted by kaimosae on January 30, 2002 Venomoids?!? I live in Sweden and luckly we don´t have this over here......yet.If/and when it starts to show up here I will do whatever I can to stop it.Tommy Jansson/Sweden Posted by MrPitviper on January 30, 2002 we all know that venomous snakes use their venom to aid in digestion. taking this away=not so good digestion and not so good welfare for the animal in question. Posted by Gabonica on January 30, 2002 Venomoid Venomous snakes are very beautiful animals so I can understand that many people want to keep them. If you're not up to handling hots though save yourself the money and the snake the pain. Buy a milksnake!! Rebecca : ) Posted by herpgirl on January 30, 2002 Okay Chris, definite yes Very good comments by all so far. Now I'm wondering where all the comments are from the ones who voted no? not that I want to see a big yelling match here but it seems to me that they just know they they have no argument.....Eric Posted by EricD on January 30, 2002 Whats good for the goose is good for the gander I say to anyone who wants a venomoid, Get your salavery glands removed, both upper and lower and see how they like it. To me it falls under mutilation, crulty, and typical human greed! A guy can take a 30 puff adder and once its venomoid add 300.00 bucks to it....for too many the all mighty buck speaks loudest. Posted by drb on January 30, 2002 I'm against....... I believe it is only being done nowadays, because it is so very convenient for a lot of people who would never consider of keeping a fully functional venomous snake. It degrades a venomous snake into a mere commodity and now those people can buy their petsnake (better yet, their toy) and show it off to the whole world as much as they want to. This is going to create a whole new group of 'keepers' who probably don't know the first thing about basic husbandry and are only interested to own such a nifty snake. And when the snake dies....who cares, it was fun while it lasted. All in all, bad for the hobby and bad for the animals involved. Posted by DexterB on January 30, 2002 I don't approve of venomoids under any circumstances, even for educational purposes. Posted by filthy on January 30, 2002 Hi TT You touched on one of the basic premises of the question: That private keepers, not educational institutions, are the largest consumer of venomoid snakes. CH Posted by Charper on January 30, 2002 MsTT Surgically mutilating a wild animal so that you can play with it carelessly is unethical in the extreme. The snake is forced to pay the price in blood and pain that the keeper is unwilling to pay in proper tools, handling skills and safe housing. If you lack the skills to manage venomous snakes, you don't have to work hard to learn those skills or buy the proper tools - immediate gratification to your ego can be obtained by chopping a snake down to size, cutting off the parts that you find inconvenient so you can have a "pet" cobra. I suggest that this sort of gland removal surgery would better performed on these kinds of keepers to reduce their foolish urges. According to Dr. Richard Funk, private collectors are close to 100% of the market for venomoids. Zoos and educators are not the ones buying these sadly chopped-down snakes. Anyone who considers it acceptable to mutilate snakes for fun is on no better ethical ground than a grinning redneck who laughs at their suffering at a rattlesnake roundup. Posted by MSTT on January 30, 2002 Wording of question I wanted the question to be worded as simply as possible. It's basically just- "Venomoids: for or against". No stipulations. CH Posted by Charper on January 30, 2002 For whom the bell tolls.... The whole infatuation with venomoid animals shall, in my opinion, cause the venomous sector more damage than any other aspect of our science. Venomoid serpents are created and marketed primarily to those whom are not qualified to maintain natural specimens and to those whom feel the need to boost themselves by owning a "harmless dangerous" animal. Wanton display of these sad creatures will do nothing for our integrity yet they will foster a lack of responsibility regarding venomous reptiles. I grow weary of the justification pertaining to public exhibition and education. I have been hosting programs of this nature for over two decades without incident or unnecessary exposure to danger. Rendering a snake venomoid is no substitute for skill, experience, and protocol. I will not support any company, facility, individual, etc., that wilfully promotes the venomoid genre. ~Holmes Posted by Holmes on January 30, 2002 venomoids, why? I don't know if the question is written well. I voted no but it is not so much the owning of one as it is why you own it and why they are being mass produced that I have a problem with. I think there use in education is pretty minimal....Eric Posted by EricD on January 30, 2002 Own a venomoid? I wouldn't want a snake to be surgically altered just so I could keep it. However, I can see where they might have their uses in educating the public. They're just not for me at this time. Posted by Buzztail1 on October 13, 2000 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!