VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Do you think that it is inevitable for a long-term keeper of venomous reptiles to be envenomated? Why or why not?   Posted: Feb 22, 2005   (210 votes, 37 comments) by Nightflight99   Yes.   No.   I don't know.     (210 votes, 37 comments)
Survey Results
Yes. 30% (62) No. 64% (134) I don't know. 7% (14)
Survey Comments
FangGirl Oh, my God! Literate, female, and a snake person! Please tell me you're single and live in Arizona. I'm having a hard time finding women who'll stay in the house longer than five minutes with my "little buddies". Posted by Chiricahuascutes on June 14, 2005 I think the results of this survey illustrate the inevitability of a snakebite from working with these animals and the reason for it: Most people who keep these snakes don't think if will ever happen to them. Posted by Heterodon on May 29, 2005 No Fate I have been bitten more times then I like to admit, and received my share of flaming / criticizm for it. In each case I was bitten it was the result of defective equipment, lack of said equipment. Simply a lack of experiance. Or my having to rush in handling the snake. Dealing with pets is different and yet the same. Discipline is key, you must have the discipline to adhere to the rules of safety 100% of the time. If you do the snake will never have the chance to bite you. If you don't then take it from me, you will not be happy. Do not rush, do not work with the snake when you are tired. And do not attempt to come close to a venomous snake unless you know what you are doing. Posted by RedrumRattle on May 14, 2005 No Fate I have been bitten more times then I like to admit, and received my share of flaming / criticizm for it. In each case I was bitten it was the result of defective equipment, lack of said equipment. Simply a lack of experiance. Or my having to rush in handling the snake. Dealing with pets is different and yet the same. Discipline is key, you must have the discipline to adhere to the rules of safety 100% of the time. If you do the snake will never have the chance to bite you. If you don't then take it from me, you will not be happy. Do not rush, do not work with the snake when you are tired. And do not attempt to come close to a venomous snake unless you know what you are doing. Posted by RedrumRattle on May 14, 2005 Keeping venomous Like the old saying goes, "If you play with fire, you will get burned." The more knoledgeable and carefull you are the less likely you are to get bit but, Like most long term snake handlers and T.V. show entertainers have found out. Sh*t happens!!! Posted by herpinstien on March 21, 2005 Some thoughts If you follow the mathematically more likely path (more involvement with venomous snakes increases the chance of being bitten) then you would have to account for all of the people who get legitimate bites even with NO involvement with venomous reptiles. You could spend all of your life hiding in your house and never go outside and live in the city and yada yada yada to be entirely safe from being envenomated just to have some yahoo living upstairs from you have his new Naja haje get out and bite you in your sleep. Not possible? Start reading the news! However, I did just attend the Fitzgerald Wild Chicken Festival and set fer a spell with some fellow keepers who hadn't been bitten after a collective of over 50 years of keeping venomous. I see it as fairly simple - do everything you can to always be safe and minimize the chances of being bitten. If you are always focused on being safe, you stand a better than even chance of never being bitten. It is that one time when you "know" the snake will not strike if you take a chance just this one time that finds you on your way to the hospital and telling everyone that it was entirely your fault and please don't let them kill your snakes. BE CAREFUL! Just my own personal thoughts, Karl Posted by Buzztail1 on March 21, 2005 getting "the hit" I firmly belive that if you get bit it is your mistake!!! but I don't belive that time has a issue on the chances of a bite. I belive that the responsibility of the keeper has all to do with the outcome of a bite. I have been keeping for a measly 5 years with no bites and I by no means do I think I am indestructable either. I always use the same techniques when I am handling my snakes. I came to a conclusion here with my own personal collection. why keep every species I can get my hands on? I know the saying he who dies with the most snakes wins. what I wanna know is. how many people got tagged trying to collect the most because of lack of experiance? I learned a couple of hard lessons. my first egyptian cobra, my first forest, and who can forget their first western Diamond Back. I think with the dispositions of some of the hot animals out there sometimes without the proper guidance even those who think they are ready for some of these animals. even those with years of hands on will find these animals a handful to deal with. but like Al said if you only deal with the buisness end of these animals in case of emergency. you can at least avoid accidents and the greatest mistake. Joe Lesh P.S. sorry about the puncuation and spelling it is getting entirely to late LOL Posted by SerpenXotics on March 19, 2005 It's a matter of playing russian roullette, really...that or Murphy's Law. Been keeping or catching venomous snakes of different varieties since I was 7, 25 years later I've been bitten 3 times, though not by any of my own snakes, and not even while attempting to "catch" a wild snake, either. I figure my day is coming when one of my own will leave it's own indelible mark, though....... Posted by ceejman on March 19, 2005 snake bites happen YES I think eventually the person would be bitten. Becasue there could be moments of complacency that could invite a bite to occur. And also the more you have to deal with them the greater your chances of being bitten. Posted by Buckk on March 19, 2005 I'm even scared of fangless snakes I voted yes. Why? Human error - luck runs out. Unless you keep old slow snakes as you get older, there will eventually come a time when you need to hang it up, or keep garter snakes as pets. Posted by TheCottonmouthKid on March 18, 2005 Heres an updated opinion on this of mine. Things that will ensure a 100% of NOT getten bitten are the proper tools, awareness, a clear mind, caution, DISTANCE and respect for the animals capabilites. Once you start peeling these away, you lend yourself open to a bite. I ALWAYS live by the motto, if the snake cant reach you, it cant bite you. If Im dealing with a 24 inch long pygmy, I use tools that are at least 30 inches long. The only exception to this rule would be the "walk in the woods" and stepping on a venomous snake you didnt notice. But thats not really considered being relevant to the question asked. Posted by guttersnacks on March 17, 2005 i say no.if u have been keeping hots for a while u should have enough respect for them.i am not saying that it wont happen though.i would own them but i wont grab them too often exept for when i really have to. Posted by snakeboy123987 on March 15, 2005 Law of averages The law of averages is only useful if p is significant in the context of n. Every time you walk out your front door, there's a chance you may be hit by lightening, but you will only walk out your front door maybe 50-100,000 times and the chances any given time a one in billions, so most likely you will never be hit. Don't play golf in electrical storms, and you don't have too much to worry about. Yes, your chances of being bitten are higher than being struck, even if you don't keep hots, but the same logic still holds. The law of averages only says a bite is inevitable if you handle your snakes an infinite number of times. I personally don't plan to do that. Posted by LarryDFishel on March 15, 2005 to be or not to be Bitten... Experienced keepers have been bitten but all say it was there own wrong doing or mistake if you will. We must all keep in mind Uncle Sam is watching as laws keep getting passed and at some point we may not be allowed to do this legally. I hope for all of us it does not happen during our life time or at all for that matter. Wishing everyone safe endeavors that are bite free. Bill Hamaker Posted by polystictus on March 13, 2005 Absolutely not neccessary to get bitten..I also got bitten, but I know it was only my fault,....Fortunately I didnt have any serious consequences Posted by Morelia on March 12, 2005 bitten law of averages say if u spend enough time with them ull get a bite....laws get broken though Posted by ssssnakeman on March 11, 2005 Perhaps the way this could be asked in the future is of those who handle, or have to handle venomous reptiles think of the question of the if and when scenario? It seems to be an odd mixture of answers, of which all are applicable. I run a private zoo, and have never even come close to being bit at home, but when running venom samples, or catching specimens in the field things certainly have a much greater chance of going wrong. Even though my number came up, I still feel that if you do not have to handle a venomous snake, in theory you should not get bit. Bret Welch Posted by Irishviper on March 9, 2005 You know it has always been my opinion that whatever you do. If you do it long enough & enough times you will always get caught. Posted by Rmitchell on March 9, 2005 reply to Really! Posted by AnonEMouse on March 3, 2005 We continue to keep venomous snakes and reptiles because we are interested with them or we want to teach others of them and help people learn that they are not monsters and should be killed on site. also the venom is being researched to find ways to use it in medicine. so... Cliff Farlow Posted by snakesallover on March 8, 2005 Long Term Keepers It is not eninevitable for a long-term keeper of venomous reptiles to be envenomated. As Pug said above, there are many professionals who have worked for years without a bite. The greatest danger is becoming complacent. Often snakes in captivity become docile and get used to a routine, and will not strike when you reach into a cage. But you can not count on that every time. Perhaps the next time you reach over the snake for its water bowl, it will be opaque and strike at you. If you are always carefull and use snake hooks, tongs, and tubes, you eliminate much of the risk. There will always be unpredictable things and mistakes that happen which you can learn from. I have not been bitten in 38 years of venomous reptile work, but have had my share of close calls. I once lifted a pygmy rattler on a hook from an overhead cage and had it slide down the hook and land on top of my hands. It did not bite, but it could have. I learned to use a step ladder for taking snakes out of the tall cages. I once held the back half of a 14 foot king cobra while a friend held it behind the head in one hand and tried to remove an eyecap with tweezers with his other hand. Well, he lost his grip leaving me holding the wrong half of the cobra! Again, no one was bitten, but it was not much fun. I learned that powerfull snakes like kings should be tubed for removing eyecaps. I know quite a few people who have been bitten, and most often it was hobbyists showing off to friends or being careless. I can understand why folks do this when they become comfortable around venomous snakes, and I did my share of showing off when I was younger. I was lucky at first, then became carefull after some close calls, and seeing some folks get bit. Venomous snakes are beautyfull, magnificent creatures, and deserve the highest respect. If you show off with venomous snakes long enough, you will get nailed. JohnZ Posted by Cro on March 6, 2005 hot bites I have rescued, rehabed, moved off the road,and kept venomous snakes (mostly rattlesnakes) for almost 20 years and I've never been bitten because not for one second, have I ever neglected to give these animals the respect and distance they deserve. I ALLWAYS use a long hook and or snake tongs. I had a friend once who thought it was perfectly fine to pick up rubers in Riverside Co. by the tail "because they are so laid back"... Well the day came when one of his docile creatures disagreed with his theory! The bottom line is, know the species your dealing with and NEVER take chances with a venomous animal. Then the chances of you getting nailed by your own snakes are slim. Posted by FangGirl on March 6, 2005 No, I don't There are two things (among many others) that jump out at me that may lend a hand toward being bitten. Complacency and inexperience. While a long-term keeper may get complacent in some instances, they may also get to be a master at efficiency if they are careful. I was very lucky early on and I think that my ugly days are behind me. I think that my regimen will keep me safe now, with little doubt. My testosterone level is gone and I want to be around for my kids to enjoy. Snakesticks and twigs will rule the pics instead of me holding them now. Derek Posted by DM on March 5, 2005 careless? If a keeper dose not falow the rules, yes it can happen. In my mind and vew, I see no reason why any keeper should take a bite. As most of you know I have been handling for about 13-14 years now, and in all this time I have not been bit. I know that to a lot of Hot Herpers this would be a rare thing, but in my mind its becaose of my careful way of doing things. So, I see no reason why a careful keeper should be bit. I just moved to a new town and have no comp of my own, so I will only be on when I can. Happy herping Wally Posted by ALA_herp31 on March 4, 2005 Envenomation Nothing is inevitable in this world except taxes (unless you're a rich Republican) and death (ibid.) While it's obvious that a venomous keeper is many times more likely to be envenomated, it's certainly not inevitable. Being very cautious and not becoming complacent or risky decreases the odds. It does not eliminate them, of course. Many concepts in our world are mutually exclusive. While there is usually a correlation between the two, one does not always necessitate the existence of the other. For example, weddings and marriages. There can be a wedding ceremony without a marriage taking place. Conversely, a couple can be married to each other without the "benefit" of a wedding. Likewise, just as a hot-keeper can be envenomated without being bitten, so can the keeper be bitten without being at all envenomated. However, that said, I do agree that actually keeping venomous snakes presents opportunities for bites and envenomations that the non-hot keeper does not have. It's rather like being out in the middle of a field during a lightning storm vs holding a grounded metal pole during a lightning storm. The odds are much greater, that is all. Posted by Coralsnayk on March 4, 2005 Really! So, all the people that said "Yes" and keep venomous snakes have apparently reconciled themselves to the apparently inevitable "fact" that they will eventually be bitten. If that is the given, then why do they continue to keep? That just does not make any sense at all. It is inevitable if you do not take every safety precaution that you can each and every time that you are close proximity to a venomous reptile. When you start thinking that you know how it will react and start taking chances and get complacent - yeah that means eventually you will guess wrong and become a statistic. Just My Take From Atop A Wheel Of Cheddar, The Mouse In The House Posted by AnonEMouse on March 3, 2005 One aspect that this question does not allow for is: “How many snakes a person keeps and how much time they actually spend working with their animals.” I would say that a person who keeps a few snakes would probably not be spending more than an hour or two each week to clean / feed and change the water bowl. Lets say a 100 hours per year, now contrast that with someone (like myself) who is putting in between 40 – 50 hours per week, 2,500 hours a year and I’m sure you will agree that the risk is much higher and starts to verge upon bites becoming inevitable. At a couple of hours a week it would take someone 300 years to rack up the amount I have put in during the last 12 years working in our Herpetarium. I can still count the number of bites I've had on one hand, so that is not too bad. I am very aware of the risks of my job, but I certainly don’t spend time worrying Posted by Hotherps on March 3, 2005 I say if you answered yes, you're liable to be 10 times more likely to get bit. Just an opinion...... Posted by guttersnacks on February 28, 2005 No reason to get tagged Although my professional herp career working with venomous has only spanned over the past 18 years, I am proud to say that I have never been bitten; and, I never plan on it. The key, in my opinion, to avoiding this scenario, is to follow certain guidelines. Here's a few: 1) Follow a rigid routine that doesn't allow for much deviation 2) Work with hot herps when you are most alert; in my case, that's early in the morning. 3) Always work with hot species before you work with harmless ones 4) If you are mentally fatigues, have a lot on your mind, experiencing stress, etc leave the hot stuff alone; they can always wait an extra day 5) Always assume that you could get bit; I use hooks to open doors, tongs to take out water, shields, long tubes to put water back in water bowls, etc. I never, ever give the snake a chance to tag me. I follow this same procedure whether its a copperhead or a king cobra - oh yeah, one must master the use of shift boxes 6) Live a clean lifestyle: get your sleep, don't smoke and don't overdo it with the "sauce"....that's what works for me and I have friends who are on the opposite end of the spectrum and they do just fine (but I know if I was not healthy, I would not feel like my reactions would be quick enough for some of the species I work with). 7) Always be willing to learn new things! I love seeing how other folks work with their venomous species because I am always picking up new techniques or better ways to manage my own collection. Rob Carmichael, Curator The Wildlife Discovery Center Lake Forest, IL Posted by Rob_Carmichael on February 26, 2005 Getting Bit Complaicency..if you cultivate that you will get tagged...I handle my Venomous snakes with care as if it is the first time every time Posted by charlie1per on February 26, 2005 very well put Posted by Unboalievable on February 25, 2005 up to you You can know if your likely to get bit. If your working with hots and you keep making the same mistakes or you dont learn from your own or other peoples mistakes theres a higher chance of you getting bit. If you are safe, and "know" the animal you are working with and show the animal extreme caution and respect you should be ok. Noone is above a bite, but some put them selves more in harms way than others. Never think that you can move faster than the snake. If you think that you are out of strike range while working with a hot, you should still give it a few more inches.(Just like securing an alligators jaw, When you think you have enough tape wrapped around its muzzle, give it a few more wraps just to be safe)It is more likely to happen to someone who is out of shape and doesnt have quick reflexes,. this hobby takes alot of training, not only on your handling skills but with your reflexes,your vision,your emotions,your endurance etc., If you are clumsy at doing other things you should take even more caution when working with your animals. Posted by bush_viper17 on February 25, 2005 It would be nice to think that bites are not evitable but from the evidence that I have seen, it would seem that bites are very likely. Virtually all those I know who work with venomous snakes on a professional level (myself included) have received venomous bites. It would seem that venom extraction is the most likely time for a person to be bitten, but I have done tens of thousands of extractions without incidence Posted by Hotherps on February 24, 2005 The Pros I've known many professionals -- zoo men and academics -- who've never had a scratch. Many hobbyists I've met have been tagged. Posted by Pug on February 23, 2005 I dont't believe that a long term keeper will inevitably be envenomated. If I did I would not do it myself. I have handled and kept venomous snakes for over 20 yrs. I have caught and handled hundres of snakes and never been envenomated. I pay close attention to the snake and to what I am doing. Carelessness and overconfidence will get you bit. I have never been biten by a venomous snake...not even a dry bite. Now that I've said all that I will have to be twice as careful! Posted by MoccasinMan on February 23, 2005 Long term Keepers I worry about getting tagged mostly when I have to force feed or medicate an animal. I don't have any worries about envenomation except for when I have to come in close contact with the dangerous end. Diamond Butt Al Posted by Phobos on February 23, 2005 If you learn the habits about the species you are keeping, give it the respect it deserves and use all the proper equipment then with abit of luck an envenomation is not inevitable. Anthony O' Brien (N.Ireland) Posted by Hyperviper on February 23, 2005 If said keeper doesn't take on the added risk of milking his/her snakes, and uses the utmost caution when handling is necessary, I don't see why an envenomation has to be inevitable. Bill Huseth Posted by KingCobraFan on February 22, 2005 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!