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Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands?
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Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection.
Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse).
So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know?
I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation.
2014-01-23
What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake?
2013-11-13
Deadliest Bite?
2013-09-16
IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself?
2013-06-06
how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles?
2013-03-02
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Worst Case Scenario: You are lost somewhere in the jungles of Columbia. All you know is that when you got disoriented, you were many days away from a settlement of any kind. You are surviving on wild foods and a water purifier when the worst happens -- You are bitten on the arm by a 4 foot Fer-de lance, Bothrops asper! In your backpack you have a Sawyer Extractor, a military tourniquet, scalpel, morphine, antibiotics, and multiple ACE wraps. Even if you are found right away, medical care is 3 or 4 days away. What do you do?
Posted: Oct 10, 2007
(139 votes, 27 comments)
by Chris_Harper
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Survey Results
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Apply the Sawyer Extractor to the bite area and suck out the venom, and get to the nearest source of water to wait out the bite.
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12% (16)
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Immediately place a tourniquet above the bite and head for the nearest source of water.
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4% (6)
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Make incisions into the fang marks and apply the Extractor. Head for the nearest source of water to wait out the bite.
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4% (6)
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Apply the pressure immobilization technique by wrapping the limb in ACE wraps. Head for the nearest source of water and try to get downstream.
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39% (54)
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Apply the tourniquet above the bite, and use the morphine and the scalpel to cut off your arm.
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9% (13)
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Do nothing. Lay down and wait to see if the bite is dry and if symptoms appear.
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24% (33)
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Cut and suck with the scalpel and Extractor, then apply the ACE wraps and head for water.
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8% (11)
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Survey Comments
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Next Survey Question
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Not that I am against revisiting an old survey question but I believe "the most dangerous snake in the world" question has recently been asked, again.
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In the "Okay, "James Bond" Scenario: You are locked in a room that is 15 x 15 feet with an 8 foot ceiling. Your captor is about to release a snake into the room with you. You can only strike one snake from the following list that your captor will choose from. You must decide: Which of the following snakes would you LEAST like to be locked in that room with? [Most dangerous snake: We'll settle this debate once and for all.]"
- DATED 09-03-07
-------------------------------
Posted by
Ptk
on October 28, 2007
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Replacement Survey Question
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Chris, you mentioned a good replacement Survey Question. Why not re-post an old one like this one from the year 2000 and see if the responces have changed much from the original.
"Among herpetologists, controversy has raged over which one of the following snakes is the world's most dangerous - to clarify - the one you would least like to encounter. What do you think ?" I believe that post got about 1000 votes, and listed snakes like Mambas, Typans, Other, etc.
Best Regards JohnZ
Posted by
Cro
on October 23, 2007
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The Right Answer
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The goal in this particular situation is to stay alive and to stay mobile. Being incapacitated by a snakebite and lying on the ground overnight in a South American jungle is a recipe for certain death. Your hope is to find your way out of the jungle, and that means you'll at least need to be able to walk. If you use the ACE wrap technique, the probability that some of the venom and impurities created by tissue destruction will make it into your torso and central circulation exists. Little things like a bad headache and the flu will put you in bed, so why wouldn't you think that this would? Applying a tourniquet and cutting off your arm with the scalpel is also not the correct answer. The morphine would not be enough to cover the pain, and also morphine makes you a bit disoriented, so you might just end lacerating an artery and killing yourself. Additionally, you would be exposing a large open wound very close to your torso, and the likelihood that some form of gangrenous infection would take hold there is a distinct possibility. Septic shock would follow, and controlling the hemmorhage would be very complicated for a one armed man should your tourniquet slip off. Sitting down and waiting to see if it's a dry bite is probably the worst idea. No one is coming to help you if the bite puts you on the ground, and you're certain to die. Remember, you are lost! The only feasible answer is the second one. Apply a tourniquet and head for water. Your only hope is to isolate the venom to the affected limb and halt all blood flow, effectively keeping the venom in one spot. At the very least though, you'll need to drink water to survive, so it's best to be near it. When the arm starts to rot, maggots will consume it and keep it essentially clean, albeit disgusting. [And if you have a fishing line, maggots make great bait!] The bottom line is that this is the only way you'll be able to stay on your feet and find your way out of the jungle. Of course you'll walk out without a blackened, rotting arm, but let's be serious, even Bothrops asper bites with excellent medical care still have tremendous local tissue damage, so it's not going to make a major difference in the outcome. LET IT BE NOTED THAT THIS IS NOT STANDARD TREATMENT FOR SNAKEBITE, AND YOU ARE GUARANTEED TO LOSE YOUR ARM IN THIS SITUATION. Congratulations to Cro on this one. He basically hit the nail on the head with his response. I have discussed this scenario before with snakebite specialist MD's, and they all have advised this would be the course of action they would take. I am not in a position to reveal their names however, because they practice mainly in the US, where medical care is very close for most of the population, and getting to a hospital with the appropriate antivenom is your best chance of survival and recovery.
Check out this photo to see what a Bothrops asper bite looks like.
http://tinyurl.com/2r2x6c
~CH
Posted by
Chris_Harper
on October 20, 2007
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Greg
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Someone submit a GOOD replacement survey question, and I'll tell you what I would do.
CH
Posted by
Chris_Harper
on October 18, 2007
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The reason I said that is twofold: One, that a compression bandage has been proven to be the first aid treatment of choice in Australia, where all of the venomous snakes are elapids. The second is that the wrap will become too constrictive when swelling occurs, which is very often the case with a pit viper bite.
Chris alluded to there being one correct answer to this. I will be interested to see what that is. Chris??
~~Greg~~
Posted by
GREGLONGHURST
on October 17, 2007
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Hmmm
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I like JohnZ's response the best and agree with everything. I'd go with compression bandage and head for water. Take the anti-biotics, submerge the arm in cool water to slow blood further.
The "compression bandage for elapids only". I've never ever heard of that before until reading these responses.
Anyone willing to just hack off their arm right away, wow, thats crazy (meant in the bad sense, not the humorous sense).
Keep the morphine at the ready though in case you decide to call it quits and "off yourself" peacefully. Taking it right away will mess with your ability to get out of the jungle sensibly.
Posted by
guttersnacks
on October 17, 2007
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bothrops asper bite
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I would wait to see if the bite was dry before making any rash
descions only to find out that i cut off my arm for no reason
80% survival rate ill take my chances
Posted by
milksnakegreg
on October 17, 2007
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Tough choices
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I expect that, given the choices, removal of the arm is the survivable one. However, the rest of the answers are not mutually exclusive. If you use the morphine and remove the arm, you will be weak and still will need to be near a source of water to survive. To that end, it might be best to apply the tourniquet, find water, use the morphine and scalpel and remove the arm. "Cut and suck", the Sawyer Extractor, the ace wraps, and "do nothing" are the obvious distractor answers for this question as none of them are actually going to do much for you in the case of a bite from a large Bothrops without the availability of rapid medical treatment. That leaves amputation. I would probably die. Thus, Colombia is not on my list of intended vacation spots ;-)
Karl
Posted by
Buzztail1
on October 11, 2007
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It is looking more and more like one version of the tourniquet above the bite is going to be the way to go.
The question past that is wether it is better to remove the arm or leave it attached.
If it were removed the stump could attract predators and become infected very easily. The cauterising that someone suggested seems a good idea. However, I still doubt that many could hack off an arm with a single scalpell and a dose of morphine. A finger maybee, but a whole arm ?
If the arm were left intact, would the gangreen and sepsis make it past the tourniquet ? If you took all of the anti-biotics, would they help prevent this ?
There will be circulation within the arm on the other side of the tourniquet. Will the infection spread into that area ? I would hope not, but it could be a big factor.
For me, this now comes down to remove the arm or not, and I still think I would let it rot in peace, and not remove it.
Best Regards JohnZ
Posted by
Cro
on October 11, 2007
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But is that 80% WITH treatment, without or total? Maybe they just never find the bodies of the people who are bitten, alone and 3 days from help? Just a thought...
Posted by
LarryDFishel
on October 11, 2007
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asper bite
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I was with my dad in panama who taught jungle warfare at fort Gulich canal zone, army.1962. I 'played with many things', but the fer-de-lance no. We had a sugar cane worker die in less than a day from a bite of a big 6' one. I did hear of a bite that was in the bush the local cut his hand off quickly and lived. Go figure! Ron RN-skids
Posted by
scrapeup
on October 11, 2007
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You know, if you understand all of the factors here, there is one answer that is better than the rest. For instance, 80% of Bothrops asper bite victims survive, but still have massive tissue loss even with antivenom. Does that help?
Posted by
Chris_Harper
on October 10, 2007
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One hopes they never find themselves in such a situation, but I chose what appears to be the most extreme "treatment", which was to wrap the tourni, shoot some morphine, and lop off the arm. I would further add that I'd probably attempt to build a fire prior to that, and cauterize the wound afterwards (better hope I have a LOT of morphine!).
My reasoning for this is simple: Wrapping up the arm and waiting out the bite is very likely to result in you losing the arm anyway, in addition to possibly developing an infection that can quickly become systemic. Not wrapping the arm in a tourni will allow the venom to flow throughout the body, which in the case of an asper, can certainly be fatal. In this situation, the arm will be sacrificed either way. The question is how much pain and additional risk are you willing to endure along with it.
Dunno if I picked the "right choice" here, but for the purposes of this poll, it's what I'd do. Dunno if I'd have the balls to actually do it in real life though :)
Posted by
psilocybe
on October 9, 2007
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Water
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The purpose of the water in this scenario is simple. If the snakebite puts you on the ground, at the very least, you'll need water to survive. You have a purifier, but whether or not you'll be able to use depends on how bad you fare from the bite.
Posted by
Chris_Harper
on October 9, 2007
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FYI
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After reading the comments below, I have to correct this particular point> You have 3 hours until the tourniquet will begin to permanently damage the limb. I currently teach a class called "Hemmorhage Control: Lessons Learned From Combat", which draws from Tactical Combat Casualty Care, the military's new trauma guidelines. Pre-Hospital Trauma Life Support also has new guidelines for tourniquet use, which ALSO draws from TCCC. We try to limit tourniquet use to 2.5 hrs. We also use commercial tourniquets called the CAT and the SOF-T. Anyone who risks severing an artery should carry one.
They are NOT for the routine use on snakebites!!!!! This case is unique however, since you are ALONE, and medical care is days away AT BEST.
Posted by
Chris_Harper
on October 9, 2007
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I agree with Greg, I've always thought the pressure immobilization technique was strictly reserved for elapid bites. I picked #2. You'd most likely loose the arm anyways.Try the extractor after applying the tourniquet, head towards water. Marty
Posted by
agkistrodude
on October 9, 2007
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Option #4 will do no harm if the bite was dry, & according to some, may do some good, although I am not in favor of using a compression bandage for anything other than an elapid bite. Personally, I honestly believe that unless the bite is dry, this scenario is fatal.
~~Greg~~
Posted by
GREGLONGHURST
on October 9, 2007
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tourniquet
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if it is a Bothrops asper, aren't you going to lose your arm anyways, apply the tourniquet! after that, good luck surviving with a dead arm on your shoulder but do not cut it off, that will put you at a HUGE risk of infection.
~Chris~
www.snakeguy101.com
Posted by
snakeguy101
on October 9, 2007
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Gamblin' Man
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First thing I would do is apply the Tourniquet, if it ends up being a dry bite I have 6 hours before the tourniquet does any permanent damage to my arm, more than enough time to assertain the severity of the bite itself. After the Tourniquet I'd use the Extractor any ammount of venom it might remove has to be helpful. Then I would head to the water and wait for symptoms. With any luck the Tourniquet was applied quickly enough to prevent the venom from spreading into my body, and hopefully the effects are localized in my arm. I'd rather lose the arm than my life. Regardless of symptoms after 2 hours, I'd grab a log and start heading downstream. Water always leads to people.
Posted by
hot_herper
on October 9, 2007
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after waiting to see if theres any symptoms decide wether to carry on or wiat and see if someone finds me ifit was not a dry bite then use morphine and tourniquet cut my arm off and hope for the best in trying to reach water and from there to civilization.
Posted by
pw
on October 8, 2007
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First get on my knees and pray it was dry.Also to thank him for the time he gave me and hopefully I'll know it's close to the end I'll stick myself w/morphine and go out tripping!LOL!
Posted by
craig3758
on October 8, 2007
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I have to go with the "do nothing" option.
Not so much because I would want to see if it is a dry bite. It would be easy to tell. However the heart beats faster when someone is in a hurry. That would help the venom to spread even faster.
I also believe that body can deal with it better if given as much rest as possible. Exhaustion wouldn't help. I would collapse on the way anyways.
There is no way to tell how much venom I would receive. I would have much better chance to survive if my body will be given the time to deal with the venom - if it was a small dose I may be lucky and just wait it out. If the snake unloaded huge amount I wouldn't make it to the nearest medical help anyways. If the nearest help is 3 or 4 days away there is no way I would get there that fast if the bite was serious. Besides healthy person would be lucky not to end up as a dinner to some hungry predator, sick and exhausted.... no way to survive on foot through a jungle.
I would also use the extractor if I had it on hand. They do help if they are used immediately after the bite.
If the flesh would start to rot I would start taking the antibiotics and use the scalpel to remove the dead tissue. I'd use the wraps to keep the wound from dirt and insect.
Posted by
tina
on October 7, 2007
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Bothrops asper bite
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I would go with #2, which is "Immediately place a tourniquet above the bite and head for the nearest source of water."
That is the only way to isolate the venom for 3 or 4 days `till you make it out.
You are going to loose the limb anyway, so, why wack it off with a scalpel? That just takes time, unless you plan to cook your severed limb for extra nourshiment, LOL ! That just might make it worth the effort. You might die of blood loss, and bones are tough to saw through with a scalpel, and you would use up your morphine doing that, and dull your scalpel. Not only that, a bloody stump would attract flys, jaguars, and bacteria. Way better to have it rotting in place. You could be two hours downstream in the time it takes to wack off your limb with a scalpel ! If you dont like the way the rotting limb looks, then use the compression bands to cover it so you will not have to see it, and to keep the flys off of it.
You have morphine, so that might help with the pain. The constrictor wraps are only usefull for a limited time, so I would not use them on the bite itself. They are usefull for many other things anyway.
I would take the antibiotics along the way, as they could help with the infection that will be coming as that limb that is fully constricted by a tourniquet begins to rot.
I would still attach an extractor as quickly as possible AFTER the tourniquet, especially if it was in the first few minutes, and hope it removed some of the venom from the bitten area, just in case I were able to find help sooner than 3 or 4 days, as there would be a slight chance of still saving the limb, and removing some venom that way. And it is not hard to walk with a extractor attached anyway.
Then I would head for water and go down stream, and keep the bitten limb submurged in the cooler water as I floated downstream on a makeshift raft, and hope that the caimen and piranha would not take too much interest in the limb dangling in the water ! That would also help keep the bitten limb below the level of the heart, just in case there was any leakage past the tourniquet.
And when I finally made it to medical care, I would have them place the limb that now would be amputated into a gallon jug of formalin, and would save that, as it would make one heck of a show piece to go along with the survival story !
And when home I would look for the coolest mechanical replacement hand available. The one that Arnold S. had in the Terminator 2 movie comes to mind, LOL !
Best Regards JohnZ
Posted by
Cro
on October 7, 2007
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The Gamble
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Conventional methodology does not apply. Snakebite advice in the US takes into account that most people aren't very far from medical care. In this situation, you have to decide which scenario will most likely see you through this very scary ordeal. Either way, the treatment that you choose here is a gamble. I won't elaborate any further - at this point.
Posted by
Chris_Harper
on October 7, 2007
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SwampY
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This one has me stumped. I think I would know fairly quickly if the bite wasn't dry. I would be willing to use the tourniquet and lose the arm to save my life. I can't see the necessity in cutting the arm off, you risk gangrene and bleeding out if the tourniquet comes undone. I think #2 is probably the likeliest to get me home alive, I could be wrong though. I often wonder if Joe S. had used an arterial tourniquet and lost the finger would he have survived???
Posted by
SwampY
on October 7, 2007
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downstream
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Based on all of the survivor shows on discovery channel, moving downstream usually leads to a city. If i were bit, i would try to ignore the pain, not much i could do about the venom, as we all know, the extractor is useless so the best thing to do is try to get somewhere where you can get help.
~Chris Hartmann~
Posted by
snakeguy101
on October 7, 2007
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Test your knowledge
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Will you make the right choice? Comments are welcome. Think it through!
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Posted by
Chris_Harper
on October 7, 2007
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