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Current Survey Question
Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands?
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Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection.
Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse).
So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know?
I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation.
2014-01-23
What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake?
2013-11-13
Deadliest Bite?
2013-09-16
IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself?
2013-06-06
how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles?
2013-03-02
View All Survey Questions
Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question?
Enter your idea!
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If an antivenin co-op existed in your state, would you?.........
Posted: Nov 28, 2007
(114 votes, 11 comments)
by Ptk
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Survey Results
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Be willing to pay $100 - $500 per year for membership and access to antivenin if needed.
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63% (72)
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Be willing to pay $501 - $1,000 per year membership and access to antivenin if needed.
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11% (13)
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Be willing to pay $1,001 - $2,000 per year membership and access to antivenin if needed.
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5% (6)
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Be willing to pay a one time membership of $5,000 for access to antivenin for as long as you lived in the state.
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15% (17)
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I prefer to rely on local hospitals and ER's for antivenin.
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2% (2)
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I prefer to stock my own antivenin.
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3% (3)
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Other - Comments
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1% (1)
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Survey Comments
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Antivenin Co-op
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What it would take for me to take the first step.
I would have to see a list of antivenin the organization is stocking and if it is applicable to the species I keep.
I would have to know where and how the antivenin is to be stored. As to not end up in some guy’s beer cooler in the garage.
I would have to know the delivery time/procedure to my area. Do I call and leave a message on voicemail/pager? How often is this checked? What kind of response time can I expect? Compare this to other means of acquiring antivenin.
I would like to see some guidelines as to how much is stocked compared to how many members participate. What starts out as a dozen or two guys sharing a few vials is not bad but a few hundred guys sharing the same few vials well........
How are dues/fees to be calculated? Cost of antivenin divided by number of members? Would it matter if a member had one snake or hundreds? What about the experience of the member?
I think a big concern many would have is who and how the funds are handled.
What can I expect if I needed antivenin and for whatever reason was not able to get it? Is it thanks for your money now piss off!?
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For the record, I think it’s a good idea. I would gladly pay many times more than what has been stated here if I had confidence it would be organized and ran properly.
Posted by
Ptk
on December 20, 2007
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Southern AV
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If the 71 out of 77 in this poll that said they would pay to have access to AV joined Southern AV, it would be a smashing success! Many say they are interested, but when it comes time to take action...? What will it take to get you to take the first step? This would set a precedent for private AV Banks... it would be the first in the country!!! Dean Ripa and I have come up with this fantastic idea... Who will step up to the plate and take the first step?
Posted by
MoccasinMan
on December 19, 2007
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Southern AV
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Then $500 every two years is a bargain!
AW
Posted by
MoccasinMan
on December 7, 2007
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I would pay 5000.00 a year if that covered the cost of the anti venom fully in the event of a bite.
If it's just giving me acess to it. I would have no problems paying 2400.00 a year. Average 200.00 a month for a great insurance policy.
Posted by
EPARR1
on December 7, 2007
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Southern Anti-Venom
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PTK is right. It is not insurance. It is a group of like minded people pooling their resources to purchase a supply of AV in the event one of us gets bitten. 40 people at $500 every two years will make it work. The shelf life for many types of AV is 2-3 years. Pray to God that it sits on the shelf until it goes bad. But if someone gets bit the AV is covered. We are sitting on one of the largest stocks in the country right now. We already have all the permits, contacts, suppliers...etc for many types of AV. We have enough people that have already said they would participate right here. Realistically we can cover N.GA, SC, NC, VA and maybe WV & PA. If you're interested in getting involved contact me. This is no joke it's real. Ask anyone who knows me and the work I have been doing. This is the real deal.
Andrew
Andrew
Posted by
MoccasinMan
on December 7, 2007
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Antivenin Co-Op
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It's my understanding that membership to an antivenin co-op is not insurance (at least not in the literal sense). The Co-op would not pay for your ambulance/helicopter ride, labs, x-rays, doctors/surgeons, therapy or meds. It simply gives the member access to a private antivenin supply. This would be especially benefical to exotic venomous keepers.
If you:
- don't have thousands of dollars to stock and rotate your own supply.
- don't want to rely on state poison control.
- don't live next door to Miami Dade "Venom One".
- don't want to depend on the generosity of your zoo (if they even have any of the amount and type you would need).
It would give members another option.
Granted, I can not find a consistant standard of exactly how these things are organized and maintained. So I believe they're all pretty much independant.
In my state you not only need a permit to keep exotic venomous but you're required to have XX amount of insurance as well. It seems to me that the insurance companies might be able to offer a discount for those that have a membership to a co-op.
It might be just wishful thinking, but if you could get past all the politics it seems like a resonable solution.
Posted by
Ptk
on December 6, 2007
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membership
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As you can see only about 30 have voted so far and that is not enough to keep an antivenom bank in business. I still think it is a great idea, but I also live in the sticks. I think everyone that keeps dangerously venomous species should be resigned to the fact that if bitten they could possibly die. I think keeping you own antivenom is unrealistic in multispecies collections. You have heard here how much the zoo's hate giving their antivenom (even if they were to be reimbursed for it). But lets face it....their antivenom expires just like everyone elses....it seems like if you don't use it...which most don't...its just going to go out of date. I know if that is all they had they would use it too, but for their employees the would be libel for giving outdated antivenom. Just my $0.02 worth.
Posted by
BobH
on December 3, 2007
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Po' Boy
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This is way too broad to make an educated decision. I only keep natives at the moment, and my hospital stocks the necessary A/V. However, I wouldn't mind having a little extra insurance (and that is essentially what this would be). If we were all able to get together and form a co-op, it should be that everyone pay based on the probability of a catastrophic bite. In other words I don't want to (and can't afford to) pay Ferrari insurance rates for my little Ford. Basically the question that has been asked here many times (but nobody has been able to answer and afraid to ask outside the 'safety' of this forum) is how much would actual bite insurance cost? We don't want to be raped by the insurance company, but we don't want to screw ourselves. Classic 'rock and a hard place'
Posted by
earthguy
on November 29, 2007
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Membership
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I would very well be willing to pay a one time membership of $5,000 and have access to antivenin for as long as I lived. That would be a lot cheaper than stocking my own supply. Seems very convenient to me.
Posted by
Jahon
on November 29, 2007
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survey
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hmmm seems to be a lot like "insurance".
Posted by
SCatheris
on November 29, 2007
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membership
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Not sure what the membership does for you exactly, besides make it readily availible. So I put 100-500 for just keeping my name on the list......as far as if I needed the AV I would gladly pay for whatever I used. Am I seeing this right?
Posted by
squigy
on November 28, 2007
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