VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Do you have imediate access to antivenoms? If not, what is your plan of action/do you have one?   Posted: Feb 11, 2010   (86 votes, 18 comments) by viperkeeper   No   Yes   Dont know   I have a plan   No plan   i take risks   Other     (86 votes, 18 comments)
Survey Results
No 14% (12) Yes 23% (20) Dont know 1% (1) I have a plan 45% (39) No plan 1% (1) i take risks 7% (6) Other 8% (7)
Survey Comments
If you do not have a plan you should not be working with venomous animals. Make sure your plan has a back up plan. Good luck. Posted by Hypodermix on November 20, 2012 okay im new here and have absolutely no experience with hot reptiles...but it seems to me that if you handle hot animals, you should have the fix it within reasonable distance in the case you are bitten...i have always been fixated by snakes, all of them, but i am nervous when it comes to the venom..ive never handled a venomous reptile, because of the swelling i get from a beesting, it probly wouldnt be wise for me..but i want to learn all i can about all these beautiful animals, so if anyone wants to help, id appreciate it.. Posted by viper88 on March 15, 2010 Ooops, missed one question. I don't think you need to send any case reports unless you use the av under the IND at some point. Again, call them! Do as much as you can and then call them up! Posted by JHarrison on February 25, 2010 elapidkeeper: You can put N/A for any of the clinical trials stuff. Yes, the form is confusing, but it is basically for people who are actaully going to be trying to bring a new drug to market. Remember that and either put N/A or 'for emergency treatment of snakebite only' or some such. Remember, if you are really unsure, you can always call them. I've been pretty impressed with them when I call- even if I have to get routed to the correct person, they have always been polite, considerate, and patient. They have always been better than any phone company I've needed to call! Posted by JHarrison on February 25, 2010 Thanks Jim very informative and very good post .Thanks Archie. Posted by pictigaster1 on February 24, 2010 BBIND # Kristen-the 1571 form is very confusing..all that phase1 phase 2 stuff,clinical trials...etc,it seems like there's a lot I'm either leaving blank or simply don'T know. I have a cover letter&bite protocols to send...do you really have to submit these and real life instances of usage and the outcomes of the product? I'm so overwhelmed... Posted by elapidkeeper on February 24, 2010 Veterinarians can not legally help you get antivenom as they are not licensed to treat humans. You want to know how to get it? Here you go: 1. Get a BB-IND number from the FDA, Center for Biologics Evaluation and Review. Here is their website: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/default.htm There is a phone number on there- you may have to go through a few people, but they will tell you where the application form is and answer questions. I have never had them not answer the phone, but sometimes you have to talk to a few people before you get to the right one. I think the biggest sticking point for private keepers is that you HAVE to have a physician be willing to apply with you, and be willing to take responsibility for the antivenom. If you don't have a physician or you don't want to ask yours, you'll have to search for one. 2. Once you have your IND number, you can apply for your APHIS permit here: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/permits/ It is 16-3 that you use. There is about a $100 fee. 3. Contact the provider and order the antivenom. Both South African Vaccine Producers (SAVP) and CSL (Australia) have websites that you can easily google. Thai Red Cross has an email; email me for it if you are ready to purchase. 4. The provider will send you an invoice. Current costs are $159 for SAVP poly and $40 for Thai Red Cross, I'm not sure about CSL but they are typically much higher. Send the provider the money and a copy of your APHIS permit. They will send you the antivenom. That's it. It is not hard, it just takes a while because our government moves slowly and foreign providers can be slow to respond. Historically, I've gotten the best response time from CSL, followed closely by SAVP-they responded immediatlely this fall, followed by ICP in Costa Rica (bushmaster keepers take note), followed by Thai Red Cross-- but even they have gotten better. Kristen KRZ Posted by JHarrison on February 24, 2010 I paid 2500 a vial crofab my buddy was charged 5000 a vial mfg retail is like 600.A vet can do the paper work to get the samir I know that for a fact as that is how my friend got his.Getting antivenom can be a real big bunch of hoops.There is one guy out there right now who is trying to make up a packet for any one to use to save there own life.He has been working on this very hard soon it will be available to all Thanks Tim we need more like you. Posted by pictigaster1 on February 23, 2010 Reference Thai Redcross and CSL both can be hard to contact but we have never had them not take our money. In fact we are recieving a large order of Thai next week. About $159. 00 per vial I would say how much is your life worth? Normally 10 to 15 vials will do the trick. Well worth the price. Jim Harrison Posted by JHarrison on February 23, 2010 BB-IND Permit. It is close to impossible to talk a doctor into helping you do this these days. They don't want to be possibly held liable or even really understand the forms.At least this has been my experience so far. Also, SAIMR Polyvalent is up to $159 USD per ampule...let's not even get into Thai Red Cross or CSL antivenin who don't even return their emails. Posted by elapidkeeper on February 23, 2010 my "plan" My plan is get to the ER ASAP, and call ahead so they can start mixing the CroFab.(And my plan worked.) Take care, Marty Posted by agkistrodude on February 23, 2010 I was just stateing a kind of rule we go by here .Sorry I did not know who you are and still do not.I have never got those emalis my self tho Posted by pictigaster1 on February 22, 2010 Red herring oops... I ment red herring not straw man.... I have yet to go to sleep... 8:04am... Posted by bitisatrox on February 22, 2010 straw man pictigaster1, your last post is what is known as a "straw man" argument, and has nothing at all to do with what I asked... The survey question is "Do you have imediate access to antivenoms? If not, what is your plan of action/do you have one?", I answered "other" as I no longer keep venomous reptiles, however when I did, it was at a venom lab (name dropping is rude and unnecessary), we always kept stocks of antiserum on hand. As for why my profile is nearly blank, and why I almost never post on these forums. It is a direct result of responses like your own.. I'm not on this site very often anymore due to the arguing and fighting. My real name up for thous of you who already know me, and I feel that is all that is necessary, as I do not post often. When my profile was complete w/ e-mail (I started coming here around 2000), I received a great deal of junk mail, so I removed it I asked a very simple question. if you don't have "imediate access to antivenom" and yet you "have a plan" as the majority of folks have responded (53% as of 2/22), what is that "plan"? As Mr. Harrison has previously mentioned, there are a lot of misinformation floating about when it comes to the subject of privet acquisition of antivenom, when I was involved in working venomous reptiles, I have often seen privet keepers relying on the already meager resources of zoos and non-profits to keep themselves alive in a snakebite emergency. This was my concern when i posted my query... If such a simple question is to be met with such hostility, then I shall refrain from using this site any further. A wise man once said that as a group, venomous keepers have a job, "we must police ourselves, or this hobby will be policed for us". this is why the venomous community is falling apart, rampant suspicion and unnecessary arguing... Good luck folks, TC Posted by bitisatrox on February 22, 2010 Profile It amazes me that some one would like to hear someones plans when they can not even fill out there profile.If some one has access to the juice then they have access some do not.At least they fill out there profile. Posted by pictigaster1 on February 21, 2010 I'm very interested to hear some of these "plans" that don't involve imediate access to antivenom... Please share... TEC Posted by bitisatrox on February 20, 2010 Laws do not prevent obtaining antivenom. If you get the permits you are allowed to obtain and have a doctor use it. It does take some time to obtain permits but can and has been done by private individuals. I have had my BB-Ind number since I was 18 years old. Dr. Minton helped me obtain it. Alot of misinformation is out there about costs and if private individuals can obtain antivenom. Jim Harrison Posted by JHarrison on February 18, 2010 antivenom survey You need a choice on there that reads:If it was LEGAL to own your own would you purchase it? My answer is "yes" Laws prevent us from owning this life saving serum. Posted by SHANE on February 16, 2010 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!