VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Thanks for voting! Your vote has been included in the results below. What NON-venomous snakes did you keep that prepared you to keep venomous snakes?   Posted: Dec 31, 2000   (252 votes, 19 comments) by Buzztail1
Survey Results
Rat snake (Elaphe ssps) 15% (37) Water snake (Nerodia ssps) 7% (17) Tree boa (Corallus, etc) 12% (30) Python (such as Reticulated, etc) 33% (82) Black Racer or Coachwhip 9% (23) Other ( Please elaborate in the comments) 12% (30) None, I don't keep snakes. 13% (33)
Survey Comments
Not the same animal I think thereīs no the same. One non-ven is very different than a ven. But if you want agressivity, start with a green anaconda, as badass as a mamba (experience in the past). But behaviours canīt be compared. A very stupid way to train before a hot. Posted by Jurliki on May 29, 2002 for the taipan one its the sameperson i had a 2 finger amputated Posted by Anonymous on April 21, 2001 the taipan was the first snake for me ive never kept a non ive been bit 2times it hurt like heck Posted by Anonymous on April 21, 2001 SSSSSSSSSSSSSSNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS RRRRRRRRRRRUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEE Posted by Anonymous on April 21, 2001 not quite ready for vens... in 6 years of dealing with reptiles, fromballs, to 20 ft. retics, ive only been bit 4 times, and i could have prevented them all, but there is still something holding back from getting the eyelas vipers i have wanted all along Posted by Anonymous on March 5, 2001 well...... I look back on it as being stupid but I was very young...I started on venomous snakes.....with no prior experience. Scott Posted by BLACKSNAKE on January 11, 2001 Training Snakes... I am so very new to being around snakes, my boy-friend is a Herp. and has a house full of some of the most dangerous species out there( but don't ask me what they are, I am still stuck on being able to pronounce the latin names of them), lol. For the most part he catches wild snakes (in our region Crotalus Atrox: Western Diamondbacks, RIGHT?)In our home we have a Bitivius Gabooni...whatever... Gaboon Viper( can't spell the latin name), Banded Egyptian Cobra, African Desert Horned Viper, Whitelip Viper. Those are our/ his imports. And of course we have several, 7 or so, Western and Eastern Diamondbacks and common rattlers. Oh and of course our almost 15 foot Burmese Python- Icehouse... our only non-venomous. I know very little about snakes but have found it to be never dull when learning. All snakes strike, some will kill, some just hurt like a b**tch. When it comes to handleing, I am very cauious, but usually just observe. Venomous snakes are better dealt with when one is prepared. You can't be "Trained" to deal with them, really. So when the time comes and you are struck, the best thing to do is have a ready supply of anti-venin, we have a few viles at home for our separate species, except for the Gaboon, I think. Oh well... If someone is really interested in learning more about the different species and sub-species, perhaps you should go to the local zoo and inquire to the Herpatoligist ( can't spell it right) on staff, about your interests in venomous snakes. Many times zoos are over populated with some species and they sell or give them away. It can't hurt to inquire. They can enlighten you and answer any question you might have. Posted by Ambrosia on January 8, 2001 Venomous Training I think the only snake that will help one make the switch to venomous is someone elses. From my limited experience(I have only delt with Agkistordons on a daily basis)no non-ven can be compared to a ven for the simple fact that you know the non-ven isnt going to kill you(excluding large boids of cource). You have to have that internal fear and respect to and fully understand the consequences of a mistake. Now, by seeing someone else do it a few times, you can start apperciate the caution used when handleing and by seeing a feeding sesion, come to relize the unexpected quick strikes and movments that these serpents are capable of. Venomous snakes are the most advanced of all serpents and therefore are like no other. In my opinion, one should have a year or so of studieing under their belt before thinking of takeing the step. At least, thats what I did. Just my opinion. Posted by TAIPAN78 on January 8, 2001 I began to keep rearfangs at first, then vipers and now iīm specialized i elapids. Posted by rugerpower on January 8, 2001 Other I never kept a non-venomous "training" snake prior to the keeping of venomous. I also learned to use a chainsaw without starting out on plastic spatulas. First hot: C.Atrox Posted by Anonymous on January 3, 2001 anonymous Although I would have to agree that there is a world of differnce between handeling venomous and none venomous snakes, I definately think non venomous snakes are an important stepping stone toward preparing for hots. I can't count the number of lessons I learned in my younger years concerning the potential quickness, irritableness and unpredictablity when it came to catching snakes in the woods especially black racers and water snakes. There were many snakes that were easy to catch like rats snakes that always seemed to be laying across a path intent on going no where without prompting or a garter snake in the open yard but with racers and water snakes you had to make a quick choice: First I would get that quick exciting but nervous surge of energy until you were able to identify the snake as non-venomous and then, if it wasn't too late you had to grab for it before it got in the bushes or went in the water. I guess a bite from one of these guys wasn't so bad, but when your 10 years old its something you would rather avoid. Once I got these snakes home bite or no bite I got constant practice in handeling them in closed quarters and I didn't have a snake stick back then. In general i guess I feel that handeling non venomous snakes for 15 years before getting my first hot taught me a ton about being familiar with there movements, speed, and agression. When I finally picked up my first venomous snake I was still scared as hell but I knew how to hold it properly b/c it was something I had been working on for years. Just imagine some of the guests that come over and hold your non-venomous snakes for the first time. Just think of the ignorance they portray sometimes due to their to their lack of ever being around snakes or really understanding the way they work and move. That's when you can really appreciate all those years of handeling non-venomous snakes, broad headed skinks, tokay geckos, snapping turtles, that big catfish you had to get off the hook or anything else that bit you or came close to it. Just in reacting with nature and loving wild animals helped me build up the experience and respect to eventually experience hots. Sorry so long. Posted by ian on January 2, 2001 non-ven to hot Like others, I would have to say "all of the above". This is subject that no one in their right mind wants their name connected with. Who wants to be the guy that says "If you keep THIS type of snake...you'll know what the hell you are doing". Ain't going to happen. I learned all about hots before I knew they "hots", meaning they were just coppers and cottons, timbers and such. You mess up...and you are headed to the hospital or worse. Once someone has made the commitment to learn they have a change in mind set too. When grabbing a big ole black rat do I handle it the same way as a copper? No, not in the least. But some basic snake movement can be learned by handling some the squirrelly species of non-vens. Nerodia and racers are quick to teach one lessons. Not all lessons, but they are help beginners to understand. I have to say that I think most bites that I have seen or know of, hot or not, comes from liberties being taken by fools. Now, have I been that fool? You bet!! And I think that while not technically "life threatening", the rearfanged models do a good job of at least teaching good hooking practices and you can practice using all the fun tools one buys or makes. Have had Oxybelis and others that have taught me a couple of things about keeping on my toes. Posted by Troll on January 2, 2001 I also had tccheck "other" because there was no "all of the above and then some" choice.But I'm not so sure any of them actually prepared me for venomous snakes.If a python or a rat snake ever bit me, I just wipe my hand on my pants leg and keep doing what ever I was doing.I never even tried to be careful, 'cause I knew it didn't matter. Posted by Anonymous on December 31, 2000 There is no cure for asphyxiation Not to offend, but to say P. sebea, P. molurus, and specifically P. reticulatus are not life threatening is not only an understatement but bordering on suicidal. I wonder how many corpses would love to argue that statement. Particularly considering there is no anti-asphyxiation medicine. Bitten by a copperhead w/ noone around? Go to the hospital. Bitten by a mature female Retic w/ no friends around? Go to the morgue. Just IMHO, no offense meant. Posted by IMPERMANENT0 on December 31, 2000 Keeping non-venomous in preparation for keeping venomous... While I have kept a rather diverse assortment of non-venomous snakes, there are none that can prepare you for the rigors of keeping venomous. My list of species kept includes, but is not limited to: Reticulated, African Rock, Sri Lanka, Burmese, Amethystine, Carpet, Blood, and several other species of python, as well as Boa Constrictor, Green Anaconda, assorted "Tree" Boas, and a host of colubrid species (Racers, Coachwhips, and rats of all kinds). I guess my point here is that none of these can prepare you for the harsh reality of what one mistake can mean when dealing with venomous. A bite from a Retic or Anaconda can be devestating, but generally not life threatening. A copperhead bite, while generally not thought of in our community as life threatening, nearly took the life of a friend of mine this spring. He is allergic to copperhead venom, and didn't know until the snake bit him on the foot. He had been bitten by a C. atrox, some twenty odd years ago, and apparently has developed an allergy. His next bite will cost him more than the $8,000 in hospital bills he is responsible for following the copperhead incident. Neither bite was a result of keeping snakes, they were just freak accidents that happened while he was enjoying being outdoors. He carries two epi-pens, to try to save himself should he be bitten again. This is just one example of the seriousness of interacting with venomous, that no amount of "training" on non-lethal animals can possibly prepare a body to deal with. Not getting bit by your racer for a year is great, but what happens if that racer bites you after 18 months and you decided to get a cobra six months after you began "training" with your racer? Do you get rid of both of them? I think mentoring is the best way to learn. Finding a venomous keeper whose cages need cleaning (don't they all?) who is willing to let you begin there, at the beginning, is the right place to start. If a mentor is not available, volunteer at nature centers, zoos, or study everything you can before venturing into keeping venomous. You can always start like I did by taking in an abuse case (Gaboon viper), but I can tell you the nervousness I felt left me wanting to dump that gaboon as soon as I found the right place to get him a permanent home.... so I vote no to kidding yourself that you can train on something that can't kill you for something that can. Posted by TomT on December 31, 2000 non vens to prepare for vens in the last fifteen years i have kept just about any snake avalible in the pet trade and a few native sp (garters, foxsnakes). and i would have to say that every animal that i worked with helped prepare me for keeping hots. they helped me to build skills like how to read snakes an anticipate what there next move will be. i learned how to hook snakes quickly and effectively without spooking the animal, as well as a number off other vital skills needed for keeping hots. with that said i would have to agree that no non-hot experience can totaly prepare you for keeping hots. they simply behave in a way that only hots do, and of course the mental aspect of knowing what kind of damage your charges can do in the blink of an eye. Posted by Anonymous on December 31, 2000 non vens to prepare for vens in the last fifteen years i have kept just about any snake avalible in the pet trade and a few native sp (garters, foxsnakes). and i would have to say that every animal that i worked with helped prepare me for keeping hots. they helped me to build skills like how to read snakes an anticipate what there next move will be. i learned how to hook snakes quickly and effectively without spooking the animal, as well as a number off other vital skills needed for keeping hots. with that said i would have to agree that no non-hot experience can totaly prepare you for keeping hots. they simply behave in a way that only hots do, and of course the mental aspect of knowing what kind of damage your charges can do in the blink of an eye. Posted by Anonymous on December 31, 2000 Nonvens to prepare for vens I have always wondered about this. Quite a few people have "said" on the web at various places that you should keep some agressive nonven, or other, to prepare for keeping vens. I have kept Southern and Northern Black Racers, water snakes of several ssps (nerodia - natrix back then), Reticulated and Burmese Pythons, Black, Grey, Red and Yellow Ratsnakes. I can't honestly say that I gained any ability or knowledge from any of them that made it easier or safer for me that first day I started keeping venomous reptiles. My first "hot" was a four foot long "Canebrake Rattlesnake" that I caught along with a two and a half foot long Southern Copperhead. From these two snakes I learned an immense amount of information that wasn't available in the literature of the time and wouldn't be out on the internet for decades. I am really interested to hear what you all have to say about this. Karl Posted by Buzztail1 on December 30, 2000 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!