VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Thanks for voting! Your vote has been included in the results below. If you own venomous snakes, do you own any antivenom or do you rely on an outside source? (Bear in mind that all surveys are completely anonymous and this information may be used to establish new regional antivenom banks.)   Posted: Jan 14, 2004   (458 votes, 18 comments) by Charper
Survey Results
Yes, I keep all of my own antivenom. 8% (36) I keep some of my own antivenom, but not for all species that I keep. 5% (23) I only keep native species, so the antivenom is stocked at the hospital. 21% (97) No, I rely on a zoo's supply. 26% (119) I don't keep venomous snakes, so I don't need any. 40% (183)
Survey Comments
Antivenom Reference the last post about JRHarrison. First Mr. Harrison is the director of the Kentucky Reptile Zoo which is a non profit exhibit and venom production lab. Second he has sent out over the years lots of antisera to save private keepers lives and has helped in treating many envenomations. Over the last 2 years we have lost $15000 worth of antisera that was not paid for by the private keepers. We have no problem with people keeping venomous but believe that each keeper should have his own antisera. Replacing antisera which we have to do more often now with people being bitten by their pets takes about 6 months so even with payment for the antisera from the private keepers we are without for a period of time which can and does shutdown important research projects. We have to follow rules and no one can handle with out antisera on grounds. Posted by Kristen on March 2, 2004 It sounds like JRHarrison is an upset zookeeper, with some issues about private keepers, which is understandable. However the zoos undoubtably recieve monitary compensation for their "borrowed" antivenin so maybe, instead of whining about their supply being absent from the zoo, they should buy some more,post haste. ya think? Posted by xvenomx on February 17, 2004 oh...for the 29 people that stock their own serum.....many thanks! The Zoo Community! Posted by stopgetinpopped on February 14, 2004 110 people rely on a zoo for their serum...how irresponsible. Come on people.. zoo's buy their own, why can't you? Oh you can't afford it? Well you shouldn't own them then! Do you realize you are putting other peoples (zoo staff)(responsible people)lives in danger by not stocking your own serum. Many lawyers are now calling this "reckless endangerment" ! Which means, not only do you kill someone else, but you get to go to prison AFTER you recover from the bite that you relied on zoo serum to survive...(how quaint) Shows a lot of intelligence... No wonder dangerous reptile keepers are regarded in the same basket as drunk drivers by lawmakers!!!!! You people are digging your own legal holes. IRRESPONSIBLE!!!!! Taphillip Posted by stopgetinpopped on February 14, 2004 Anti-venom I agree with JRHarrison that anti-venom is one of the most important aspects of a venomous collection, but one question. Why does it cost different in other countries? Posted by crick100 on February 9, 2004 G’day, It’s really quite simple, when I milk my Naja, I keep it refrigerated for sixteen days to slowly denature the proteins involved in analgesia (really takes the “sting” out of the injections) and with gradual increase (about 0.1 cc per month), I’ve found that I don’t really don’t have to worry to much about an accidental (or intentional for that matter) envenomization event occurring. I’ve never been hit hard (say after an extended torpid period, where the venom is really hot), but I’m fairly confident I could survive with minimal discomfort, given the degree of resistance I’ve been able to achieve. I’ve tried ingesting it, but I believe the digestive enzymes tend to lower the efficacy of this evolutionary process (besides a hell of a case of heartburn ;o) Posted by Atraides on February 5, 2004 Help I am writing my thesis paper for graduation on the distribution of Antivenom in Pennsylvania hospitals, and zoos. If anyone can help direct me to similar research, or where the major stock piles of AV are located in the states, other then Miami, I would be very greatful! Posted by WildChris on January 29, 2004 misconceptions You can keep anti-venom at your own house in your own fridge, the Dr. who signs for it doesnt keep it. all together for african serum its right around $950 for shipping and aphis permits and the drug itself which is about the price of a taipan or a black mamba. I dont mind handling many naja species or i diddnt untill last january because i was "carefull" i wasnt carefull enough and i allmost caught both fangs in my arm, and it was a run of the mill stereotypical "clumbsy" indian cobra that shot up a four ft hook like an arrow! Posted by DougW on January 26, 2004 anti-venom The serum really isnt that hard to get i was able to get my ind number when i was 18 but Jim and Kristen helped me through the process by telling me which government agencies to contact. Wasnt very hard and most anti-venoms outside the US is pretty cheap except for Aussie stuff. Thai king cobra "was" $15 african polyvalent is $55 a vial its worth it. Posted by DougW on January 26, 2004 AV Thanks Shane --- I agree. The real villian in this case is the both the government for making AVs manufactured outside the US hard to obtain and, here in the US, the manufacturers who have made their prices rediculously high! (Wyeth has raised the price of their's to $870 per vial for humans because CroFab is $1000 per vial - but for dogs, it's only $270 [same exact stuff]). In places where you have AV laws where you have to stock 10 vials for each type of snake it makes it too costly. We should, by law, be allowed to ban together and start AV banks. Posted by thirdangel on January 25, 2004 anti-venom One of the responses to the question should be: If it were LEGAL to obtain your own anti-venom would you do so? The FDA has listed all anti-venom in the experimental drug catergory and prohibited individuals from purchasing any of these products. The only exception I know of is to have a doctor sign for the perscription and even then it is to be kept at their office. (really handy) This is the case in FL anyway. Another draw-back should you be able to procure your own stock is the relatively short shelf-life. Usually it's about 1 year,after that you've got a 50% chance the doctor would use it for fear of a lawsuit. The second best solution to this problem is to have a regional AV Bank set up like we have in FL.( it would be nice if you out-of -state guys would stop sponging our anti-venom) And of course the BEST solution is to be more careful. Best Wishes, Shane Mader Posted by SHANE on January 23, 2004 anti-venom One of the responses to the question should be: If it were LEGAL to obtain your own anti-venom would you do so? The FDA has listed all anti-venom in the experimental drug catergory and prohibited individuals from purchasing any of these products. The only exception I know of is to have a doctor sign for the perscription and even then it is to be kept at their office. (really handy) This is the case in FL anyway. Another draw-back should you be able to procure your own stock is the relatively short shelf-life. Usually it's about 1 year,after that you've got a 50% chance the doctor would use it for fear of a lawsuit. The second best solution to this problem is to have a regional AV Bank set up like we have in FL.( it would be nice if you out-of -state guys would stop sponging our anti-venom) And of course the BEST solution is to be more careful. Best Wishes, Shane Mader Posted by SHANE on January 23, 2004 JRHarrison, the fact is, people and legislators are going to push for the ban of private ownership of any reptiles, much less venomous, regardless of what we do. The simple fact of the matter is this: almost no keepers maintain their own antivenom. It is just too much of a burden to do so. If you can afford it, great, by all means get as much as you can. But the average keeper in this country cannot afford it. You might then ask, well how are you going to afford a hospital stay? The thing with that is, no hospitals request lump sums when the amount is large. You pay it out over time just as you would do for a car. Unfortunately, the AV manufacturers do not offer this option, so a keeper with even a small collection consisting of a small variety of elapids, Crotalids, and true vipers, would be looking at stocking at least 5 to 10 vials for each of the three types of snakes listed. That is...if one AV would cover them all. This is doubtful, since venom varies widely by species and even locale within a species. Some people are even saying now that even if you only keep NA Pit Vipers that one AV may not be completely effective against them all. Crofab is $1500 per two vials. Some very common rattlesnakes require 25 vials to be fully effective. Can you afford that? So you don't want people keeping taipans without AV, and of course there is some logic in that. But who on Earth would spend such a huge amount on AV for his eastern or western diamondback, both of which may require well over 20 vials to treat? Can you really name anyone willing to do that? I doubt it. Hot keeping is a serious risk people CHOOSE to take. With that choice comes the risk of dying. It is no different from people who cliffdive or skydive. Should they keep an ER crew on hand every time they jump? Of course not. What about people who work with large constrictors, monitors, or crocodillians? Should they also have a private crew of paramedics at their disposal in case of an attack? The whole point I guess I'm trying to make here is live and let live. I'm sorry people owe you money for AV they used and are not paying you. However, if I were them, I would be paying. There are dead beats in the world, but we can't really get around that cant we? Maybe instead of bickering at each other so much, if we concentrated our efforts on the legislators who could completely destroy the keeping aspect of out lives with a little ink on paper, the entire hobby would be better off. Posted by Chance on January 21, 2004 Antivenom If a zookeeper is bitten by his own private animal and the zoo finds out most zoos would fire the individual. There is no way around not having your own antivenom and not risking others that are following the AZA rules. Chance you seem to think, zoos have lots of money to fund antivenom. In fact some zoos are going away from keeping many venomous because they are tired of losing it to private keepers. That is also why alot of zoos are pushing for total bans on private ownership. In the public eye who will win out. The private ownship of venomous is balancing between being banned. One way to look better to the public is to have your own antivenom and not risk others lives. Posted by JRHarrison on January 21, 2004 I think this question should be narrowed a bit and be applied to zoo keepers and other professional personnel that keep snakes in their private collection. If they rely on their zoo's AV supply, they should select the "No, I rely on a zoo's supply" option. I don't believe it very fair for zoo, university, and other such personnel who have AV supplied to their profession to equate that to keeping their own. That might make the results a bit more honest. That's not to say those individuals didn't already select that option, but if they didn't, they should. Just my logical opinion anyway. Posted by Chance on January 21, 2004 Antivenom supply: In Banff, Scotland (It's in the UK for those who failed geography in school!!) where I am based, our main hospital (1/2 Km away) does not carry ANY Av, because there in "no need, and would be too costly". The main city hospital (60 Km) does not carry either...not even European Adder (Vipera Berus). So, I have to rely on the nearest supply being airlifted from The Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine should I need it: (200+ Km & flight could take just over 1 hour) They carry AV to cover all venomous species, and would supply only on an "as required basis". This is down to the fact that the hospitals in the North East of Scotland still think it is an uncommon occurence for people to encounter venomous snakes, therefore they don't need to stock. But, as near 90% of all venomous species can safely be assumed to be kept in some form or other here in the UK, I hope to change that opinion. I have already encountered Forest Cobra, Green, and black mamba, coral snake, Eastern D/back and 2 Gaboon Vipers. So, for now, I just have to keep my fingers crossed that I shouldn't need it. (I have looked into obtaining my own AV, but as I don't know "what" I'll discover, or when, it would mean stocking EVERY vial for all species - not financially possible.) Posted by BanffshireBushman on January 18, 2004 Antivenom Antivenom is the most important part of having a venomous collection. No one should endanger any other keepers by using up their supply. Soon it will be more expense not to have antivenom then to have it. Insurance companies and lawyers are looking at ways to punish those who endanger others by not having their own supply of antivenom. Also the public make the laws on keeping exotics not herp keepers. So when someone is bitten and antivenom has to be found this risks keepers and ER personal. The media will use this to push for laws. Five exotic bites in Ohio sense Thanksgiving and none of the keepers had their own antivenom which has placed zoo keepers at risk until more can be obtained. Get the antivenom then get the snake. Posted by JRHarrison on January 14, 2004 anti-venom only keep snakes short term in spring, summer, or fall. Posted by archerdude777 on January 14, 2004 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!