VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Thanks for voting! Your vote has been included in the results below. Which brand of snake tongs is your favorite?   Posted: Dec 04, 2001   (321 votes, 22 comments) by Charper
Survey Results
Pillstrom Brand 9% (30) Gentle Giant by Midwest 49% (158) Midwest Standard 18% (58) Whitco Brand (aka Whitneys) 9% (29) Latest Rage (Whitney Style) 5% (15) Mighty Midget by Genesis 10% (31)
Survey Comments
Pushing Midwest Midwest is a great company who is run by snake friendly people. I'm glad they advertise on this site and hopefully we'll see more of them. Now if you're they type of person who likes to dishonestly vote several times and disagrees with having internet surveys (which DO provide a good source of information) than maybe you shouldn't participate. I'm sure that the SHHS is only trying to gather information and not trying to PUSH you into stocking up on products that you don't want. If the Furmont products suit you better, vote them. Don't whine about the results if they product you like isn't in the majority. The world is a diverse place and some things work better for different people than their counterparts, no one is going to judge you based on the hook you use, but rather your responses and comments about the subject. Here's to the Gentle Giant! Posted by lildragonlady on November 26, 2001 Hooks, Tongs and Tubes I voted for Midwest for a number of reasons. Until this last year, I have made my own hooks which were sturdy and dependable but heavy. Then I got my first Midwest hook and was amazed at its light weight and versatility. I was also very pleased with the relationship that Dana Salvorelli has with his customers. My children decided to buy me tongs for Father's Day this year. Having met Dana, and handled the tongs at a show, my wife had no reservations about recommending his products. The tongs came and now go on every snake call with me and are always reliable. The Boss now has her own hook, I have tubes and a cage hook. And Dana asks for both of our opinions about products whenever we get to see him. Quality - excellent! Customer relations - excellent! Price - you get what you pay for if not more! Thank you Dana! Karl H. Betz & The Boss Posted by Buzztail1 on November 18, 2001 I wonder why people favor Midwest? A lot of people in the hot herp community do seem to favor Midwest and want to support the company and their products. I wonder why this is? Could it be because the owners of Midwest are venomous snake keepers who seem genuinely interested in being part of our keeper's community, not just trying to sell stuff to anybody to make a buck? Because their products are designed with the long term health, comfort and safety of snakes as the primary goal, for snake keepers and not for rattlesnake roundups? Because Midwest really listens to feedback from any keeper who writes or calls them, and our opinions make a difference to them in designing their products? Because Midwest regularly sends out prototypes to keepers in our community so that our reviews can help them improve their designs? Because Midwest is very generous in donating their products to snake-friendly causes? Yeah, I think that might just have something to do with it! LOL Is it terribly unfair for us to favor a company that does all this? Maybe, but we do anyways. No big surprise. But I really doubt that anybody is tampering with the survey behind the scenes. Not only is this more difficult than you think, it's not even necessary. It's a pretty tight software platform and I seriously doubt that anybody at the SHHS website even has access to the remote server it actually runs on. Anyone with minimal software background can make that verification for themselves. I am guessing that some form of IP signature is recorded, and would be cheaters who think they can vote more than once are likely to find themselves uncomfortably exposed. :) Not to mention the fact that it ain't necessary, at least not on Midwest's behalf. That company already has so much name recognition and brand loyalty among venomous keepers that they aren't the ones who need an artificial popularity boost. The fact that they make damn fine product (and a lot of it!) and have a lot of friends in the venomous community pretty much makes them a no-brainer to ace the polls without any help from cheaters. Posted by MSTT on November 13, 2001 Note from webmaster I have deleted posts that "explain" how to alter the survey. I might add that I have never seen the need to delete any posts before. Let's try to keep it "one person, one vote". Personally, I'm just interested in the truth.-- Chris Harper, Webmaster Posted by Charper on November 13, 2001 Reviews If you have used tongs ( any kind )write a review about your experiences with them. Either here or on the reviews page. Posted by newggtongs on November 12, 2001 Pushing Midwest? Pushing Midwest?? I don't really like what that terminology indicates. Midwest hasn't "bought" us. We chose what we like the best. Before GG's, we liked Whitney style best. And I will point out on Midwest's behalf, that they never complained about it, they just invented something better. We can use whatever equipment we like. Why would we use something that we don't like? That doesn't make sense. Also, I think the survey is much more likely to be accurate without you telling everyone how to alter it. We have no desire to practice "bad science". We just know what the majority of us like most. Gentle Giants. Chris Harper Pres., SHHS Posted by Charper on November 11, 2001 Manipulating data and website info If anyone would know about manipulating website data, it IS Bobby Neal. Just look at how all the data from October, including the several long threads which castigated him for his inability to interact with grown-ups disappeared from his forums. He is genetically incapapable of passing up a post with which he disagrees. He knows everything there is to know about herps and associated equipment and is more than willing to cram that info down your throat whether you want it or not. That is certainly much easier than calling up the company from which you bought the equipment and asking them to fix the problem isn't it! Nothing wrong with healthy disagreement. Nothing good comes from my view is better qualified than yours. I prefer my old Whitney's, so what! Southeastern Hot Herp Society at one time promoted a different set of tongs. Anyone remember the long months of trying to get the company to fix the problems with them? Or the backbiting and bitching when the society pulled its endorsement? Kingsnake dot com was filled with all that crap including threats of physical violence to society officers! This survey asks about YOUR FAVORITE TONGS. Answer the question or don't, give a little endorsement or don't, and go post your bitchy little attitudes on kingsnake, this was/is a nice friendly place. The Mouse That Roared Posted by AnonEMouse on November 11, 2001 Oh come on Bobby Neal! Now I have to say something. You obviously know little or nothing about statistical sampling! 132 votes and 76% is probably a good indicator of a trend!LOL I am generally a lurker but I know that many individuals from all walks of life visit this site. I am also a software engineer and know that the platform for this site dis-allows any tampering with the survey from within the administrative areas. I also have no reason to believe that they would bother to tamper with it. It is obvious to even the casual observer that you have an affinity for cutting against the grain. I believe it goes beyond your opinion. Did your father beat you with midwest tongs as a child? Posted by skeeter on November 11, 2001 for boaz Hey boaz. No reason to be so formal with me, you can just call me Bob. While what you say is true about the survey, I don't think you could make such an extrapolation based on such a poll for the "whole herp community." As I type this there have been 132 votes. The voting here will be somewhat biased anyways due to it is being done on a website of an organization that generally heavily pushses midwest products. By making such a small sample size (a max of 132) on a specific group of people your results cannot be used to describe the thoughts of "the whole herp community." Posted by bobby_neal on November 11, 2001 for bobby neal currently mr. neal, there are 132 votes on the survey and gg's have 53% of the vote. that means that they have more than all others combined. if you combine both midwest products represented, they have 76% of the vote. that is a significant statement. Posted by Boaz on November 11, 2001 GG's are best used for handling snakes only. Witco & Latest rage are good for moving lightweight items and are good for use on small to medium sized snakes. Pilstrom and midwest standard, in my opinion should have zero contact with any snake. They are very good for moving heavy items and offering food to captive animals. Think about your needs for having tongs, and get the kind that suits them best. All pieces of gear have their weak points, and if you save your $$$ you can buy different kinds of tongs to fit your needs. I have never used the mighty midget, But here in S.W. Florida there are plenty of sistrurus and young agkistrodon to use them with. Posted by newggtongs on November 10, 2001 I forgot to add "the whole herp community has chosen gg's above all other brands combined" is a broad statement to make. Many people like "gentle giants" and that is fine. But at the same time there is still a signifigant number that prefers other tools. Posted by bobby_neal on November 10, 2001 for Boaz It isn't that I don't like midwest, I just think that the praise they get is sometimes undeserved. I've have 2 products of theirs (some tongs and some tubes) that with less than a year of use have failed. To start off with, they sent me an incomplete set of tubes, but sent an extra tube that was somehow jammed inside of one of the same size (literally, jammed). And 2 of my tubes in that same set have already cracked and have become dangerous to work with. I don't personally own any "gentle giant" tongs, but I have worked with tongs that have belonged to others. If some people can sit here and praise a product that they admit to not owning, why can't I say that I don't like a product that I don't own, but have used (wouldn't it be dumb for me to buy a product I don't like?). Like many people have said... Use what works best for YOU. Many people that use "gentle giants" in captive situations will admit that they aren't handy for field work or other situations. It isn't that I don't like midwest. If someone likes them and their products, more power to them. Other people have posted their opinion, I've posted mine, and have good solid reasoning behind my opinion... Nothing wrong with that is there? Posted by bobby_neal on November 10, 2001 for bobby neal from your comments on other forums i think you have something against midwest that has nothing to do with the quality of their products. the whole herp community has chosen gg's above all other brands combined but the first line of your post says 'i personally don't like gg's for most jobs', and you don't even own any! i think you just try to be difficult. Posted by Boaz on November 10, 2001 Tongs I also voted for GGs even though I don't own any. I have just heard to much good stuff about them even though all I have is Pilstrom type that I only use for feeding. Haha they are really only xxxlarge tweezers. I almost threw one pair out the window the other day while trying to use them on a med/large adamanteus. I went with the hook and tail as always. Much safer and comfortable for the snake which makes me feel more comfortable just .02 or less.....Eric Posted by EricD on November 10, 2001 Tongs It depends on the job at hand. I personally don't like Gentle Giant tongs for most jobs, and the pricing on these tongs makes them loose quite a bit of appeal for me. If I had to have ONLY one pair of tongs, I would make it my Pilstroms. They are strong, durable, have a jaw that is useful for more than just manipulating a snake, and with practice they are very sensitive and you can feel exactly what you're doing. The jaw design on the gentle giants are useless for doing things such as moving water bowls and cage furniture. Pilstroms work great for me for these tasks, even with heavy objects. Now, I would never try to use Pilstrom tongs alone for moving a heavy-bodied snake, but when using pilstroms along with a hook they can be used safely on heaviy-bodied snakes. As far as field work, I can't even remember the last time I carried tongs with me. I've had good luck getting snakes out of hard to get to places using my hands and hooks. If the snake is wedged somewhere that I can't get it out with my hand or hooks, then it is probably wedged in there good enough that I couldn't get it out safely with tongs without hurting it. In the field I prefer going out with a hook and plenty of snake bags tucked under my belt, and occasionally a bagging stick to go along with it. Posted by bobby_neal on November 10, 2001 O'Shea Tongs I know that Mark has some old tongs that he made with.....like a bicycle hand-brake for a grip, but I think he had a 72 inch pair of Midwest Standard tongs in the Mamba episode. I haven't seen it in a while, but I think they were padded and painted by him as well. Open for correction. CH Posted by Charper on November 6, 2001 Mystery tongs Does anyone know what kind of tongs Mark O'Shea used in the "Black Mamba" show? I have never seen them anywhere else exept for his first few "Big adventure" shows. They had a two finger trigger a relitivly thin tube and the jaws were oddly shaped. I have never seen them anywhere else. They may be a British style tong. Thanks for any information. Posted by newggtongs on November 4, 2001 Gentle giants I voted for Gentle giants. I have the 40" without the "Super tong" option. I have the old (non-GG) style take-down tong with foam padding as a back up, but I still hesitate to use them with any snakes. The GG's are top-of-the-line equipment with a lifetime warrentee! If you do any work with snakes, Get Gentle Giants!!! Those who voted for other tongs don't have Gentle giants! P.S. Read my review of GG tongs! Hey Copperheadjunkie, Midwest will custon build you GG's to whatever size you request. The "super tong" is not really needed for tongs under 60" in my opinion. It would take some harsh abuse to bend that tube. The "super tong" has a darker blue color than the regular tube's sky blue tone. Posted by newggtongs on November 4, 2001 Tongs I voted for the gentle Giant Tongs. I don't own a pair, but have found them to be the best. My only gripe is the lengths available. The shortest ones are too short and the next step is a little too long. Working with Copperheads I don't feel I have enough distance between me and the snake with the shortest ones. And the next step up are a little too long for enough control in getting them into the cage and all. In a field situation they would be perfect. Or if I had a shorter more stout bodied snake the short ones would be perfect. It's just that fine line in between. Unless a happy medium is reached I will have to find a way to decide which length I will get. Don't know if I should wait or maybe contact Midwest and talk to them about this. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Later, Anthony. P.S. Is the blue anodized tube a significant strength difference I should worry about if they are only to be used for Copperheads or other similar sized snakes. It's a considerable price difference if it is unecessary. Posted by CopperheadJunkie on November 3, 2001 Tong summary: strengths and weaknesses I think the Gentle Giant is the overall superior tong for most snake handling situations, but not all. All three of the major tong styles (Pillstrom, Whitco, Gentle Giant) have strengths and weaknesses that make them the best choice (or not) for a particular job. The cheap imitations are mostly just that, and should be completely avoided in my opinion since many of them are made of really inferior materials and are likely to break. The original "Big Three" are sturdy, durable products, but picking between them requires a bit more thought. I've posted a summary of their strengths and weaknesses at http://www.kingsnake.com/forum/venom/messages/42377.html Posted by MSTT on November 2, 2001 Tongs I voted for the GGs, even though I don't own them (mine are antique Pilstroms). I rarely use tongs except as a standby when I'm transfering a snake. I've never used them in the field. One day, I'll get the GGs, but it's not a real high priority. f Posted by filthy on November 2, 2001 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!