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What does "handling" mean???
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I think this topic is about more than just HANDLING the snakes. Although I've been interested in venomous snakes for over 20 years, I haven't been a "handler" for more than 5 or 6. In this group maybe that makes me a 'beginner', at least in the eyes of the people here having both 30 and 40 years behind them. But since I've had around 20 venomous snakes and over 20 years of reading behind me, I wouldn't consider myself as one. So am I then a 'novice'? Maybe the "multi-decade handlers" would say so... but I don't.
The reason I checked 'advanced' is that I never see my experience as something that would make me more capable of doing things as "routine". I never have thougts like "it SHOULDN'T reach me from there" or "it NORMALLY reacts like that". If I'm using a hook doesn't matter... the gloves will still be on my hands. I handle venomous snakes like I knew NOTHING of their normal behaviour, even if I've had them for years. The calmest Copperhead would be treated the same way and with the same respect as if it was a highly aggressive Saw-Scaled Viper.
As I see it, these four levels can be explained something like this: "Beginner = Someone with little experience behind him", "Novice = Not beginner, but with more experience/knowledge than one... OR(!) someone who thinks his experience is enough to make him see when he can cut on safety", "Advanced = Someone with quite some experience but still handles the snakes in the safest way possible". The last level, "Expert", is something I can't see refering to HANDLING snakes but would rather have in the category 'Knowledge'. That's my opinion...
//Nic
Posted by
ketill75
on February 17, 2003
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greasemonkey
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Not to use scientific names....that is one of the most idiotic coments I am yet to hear!
I in a manner of speaking tend to use scientific names when speaking to herps as it is more specific eg....if i say brown snake I could be meaning any one of 8 species...If I say Pseudonaja textilis I am speaking of 1.
Another reason....Mulga, King Brown, Kingy, Giant Brown, and among herps more so..St George, Eyree, Darwin all stand for Cannia (pseudechis) australis that 1 name to 7 "common names".
I am a plumber I am also a snake removalist and demonstrator..where do I fit....?
From the sound of your nickname you are a mechanic?? why do you then use Naja....its in your profile.
regards,
Scott Eipper
Posted by
BLACKSNAKE
on December 12, 2002
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Greasemonkey
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The first few sentences are relavent to the survey.But to go on about who should should use latin and who shouldn't is the wrong survey.I'm personaly useless at latin,but whenever I see a name that I don't know(quite often)I try and find out the common name,either using my reference material or the internet.Its part of learning the hobby,thats the way I see it.Oh by the way you may want to check your profile sombody has entered latin names.
Posted by
Rabies
on December 8, 2002
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handlers
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I have been to alot of keepers houses and seen their collections and their handling technique but by far Micah Stancil is the best I have delt with in the "amature" ranks he alowed me to build up to different species he does not pretend to be a scientist spouting different latin names he calls an eastern Diamondback rattlesnake an "eastern diamondback rattlesnake" not that he does not know the latin name their are alot of keepers out here that work as hamburger flippers during the day and then want to say "Crotalus Tigris" at night for a tiger rattler lets all just let the scientist and biologist do their job and enjoy our hobby. If you are a scientist or biologist feel free to tell me the latin terms and how I should keep my snakes but if you are a T.V repair man keep your "Dendroaspis Polylepis" to your self and just tell me the Damn thing is a black mamba. Just my opinion enjoy
Posted by
greasemonkey
on December 6, 2002
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beginner?
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Am I a beginner?I don't even think I've gotten that far yet.Unfortunatly hear in the UK there are'nt many legall "hot keepers".Its easy enough for me to go and get set up on hots the money for the license is no problem and the insurance.The problem I have is getting adaquate training in handling them before going solo.I suppose I could jump in the deep end and just go for it,but I have other responsablilities ie husband,father.So at the moment I'm stuck at reading books,watching TV.And getting frustrated.
regards
the theoretical hot keeper!
Posted by
Rabies
on December 1, 2002
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Discretion
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With every snake there is a relationship that you must respect. The wrong move and you can meet ya death. my fascination started when I was 12. I caught a cooperhead and kept it in a cage when on a school trip and I was forced to give it up. I learned so much with my eastern diamondbacks. I never under estimate dem and i respect them from a distance. they are so easy to care for. Water, heat, clean cage, food and shelter is all they need. They aren't for everyone.
Posted by
Tafari
on November 30, 2002
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bitten by a rusells viper
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Hi folkes this is just to inform u that a guy who was one of the best handlers at a snake park in Pune , india, was bitten by a rusells viper ( daboia russelli) while trying to head catch it with his bear hands.
he got invenomated and his hand literally started decaying in front of his eyes ( bcoz of the haemotoxicity of the venom). It became gangrenous and had to be amputated almost immediately.
Never ever try and free handle vipers!!!!
The pain of the bite is too excruciating.
Bbye and take care,
Aniket
Posted by
aniket
on November 28, 2002
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Beginner
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Although I've been keeping hots for nearly two years now, I'm still a beginner. The people I've met who helped me out with my questions all have been keeeping hot snakes for over 20 years or more.
Nevertheless, i've seen them perform some pretty dangerous things (gettin waterbowls out of cages with their bare hands etc.)
In my opinion, some long term hot keepers tend to become over-confident. I muyself will try to always have a healthy respect for the animals I keep. It's cheaper on your medical bill, and keeps the negative news fromm the hobby...
Cheers, and stay safe
Peter
Posted by
Snakeskin
on November 26, 2002
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Man bitten on lip
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Have any of you seen the article or heard
about the guy in Yacolt, Washington that
was bitten on the lip by an Arizona Rattler?
I can post it if anyone hasn't
Mike
Posted by
atrox231
on November 21, 2002
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"professional " getting snake bit
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A true prodeffional is not hardly happy to show off war sacrs that show failures in saftey protocouls. Thats the stuff amatuers do usually in the first few yeard while learning what not to do, and what needs to be improved. To call anyone a pro after they say how many times theve been bit is like congratulating your child for the extreme number of times they fell off the bicycle as opposed to the number of times was ridden correctly. We as a grop are responsible for those amoung us to maintain as SAFELY as possible our charges ( Hot Snakes ), as is was we that brought them home and into the neighborhood. I was bitten in my first year--of course was a juvie C. Atrox, and a act of monumental stupidity, as it always is. I learned that the pain of snake bite is not worth the infamy of the act. I changed the way I work them, and in past 20 yeard have managed to keep my body parts out of their mouth. That is the goal, that and enjoyable keeping. Nothing can be enjoyable about 10 days in hospital, severe swelling and pain associated with it, coupled with the inappropriate hospital you can expect because they simply do deal with too many snake bites let alone excotic snake bites. Lets praise the real good guys--with clean track record, and practice what they preach, and they preach the right way of working hot dangerous snakes. ( please advise me if I am hyperventalating too much )
Barry
Posted by
Barry--4
on November 20, 2002
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You guys win! Bill is an expert, but I still think he gets off on the attention from all the bites. He is still the MAN for sure.
Posted by
Brick
on November 20, 2002
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Experts & Bites
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I am sure that many would share my sentiments when I say that I feel a kindred sprit towards fellow venomous handlers. It is always a worry when we hear reports of bites. Admittedly “Experts” do get bitten. It is also a fact that in this profession, the ratio of those bitten is far higher than those who have remained bite free. I would guard against saying that these bites occur because experts are “over confident”.
Sure some are a bit cavalier, but most of us have a lot of respect for the snakes we care for. To work with venomous, especially day after day, you do need a good measure of confidence, (with some in reserve for when you are not feeling 100%).
You can’t be constantly worrying whether you are going to spend tonight in a hospital bed or worse, if you will be in a wooden box by next week. I have had a few really bad bites, but then I have done well in excess of half a million snake handlings and 1000’s of venom extractions, so the ratio of bites is very small. If you work with a large number of snakes for long enough it is very likely that you will have an accident, I just hope that when it happens, it is not too bad. Paul D. Rowley
Posted by
Hotherps
on November 18, 2002
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Snake handling
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I think experts tend to get bitten; if you disagree check out the list of appointed and self appointed experts. "Expert" lables breed over-convidence and lack off respect for an animal that can kill you.
Personaly I try to be as gentle as possible when handling all hot snakes but this particulalry applies to catching wild snakes, the less convinced the snake is that it has to fight the better. Living in Africa I've caught pretty much all it has to offer as well as other exotics while working in a snake park for 5 years and never been bitten and I hope I never will...call myself an expert.
Posted by
andrew
on November 16, 2002
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How good are you.?
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Is it me, or do my snakes know my weak spots. Think about it befor you handle your next Hot. Thanks Spanky.
Posted by
spanky
on November 16, 2002
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maybe just lucky
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Where i come from ( India) Herpetoculture today is as far removed from reality as Brain Transplants
I grew up handling venomous snakes from Russels vipers to banded Kraits to King Cobras. All this time ( 11 years) I have used a much worn Bamboo stick about 5ft long and my two hands to handle my reptiles.
since i have had only one close shave ( dry bite from an irritable Bicellate) i dont know if am good or just lucky.Iam fascinated by the technology herp related products websites etc.
any way i know iam no expert.
Posted by
Hamadryad
on November 15, 2002
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Always learning
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I would like to relate a true story in the hope that it shows that we should always be striving to learn and improve our handling skills. I have a framed picture on my wall here showing a man holding a King Cobra, in the background is a Scottish Wildcat, while in front are two Wolves. This portrait is of John Foden, a guy who was handling King Cobras before many of us were born. He helped set up the International
Herpetological Society (IHS) and was a big influence on many in the UK. He took people like Mark O’Shea under his wing and taught them how to handle venomous snakes. I first met John while I worked at Chester Zoo, a larger-than-life character who was always relating stories, (like the time his venomoid Thai Cobra bit someone and they later keeled over in a supermarket…full on bite !). John came to visit me at work several times…even though he had a fair size venomous collection himself, he’d be wide-eyed and in his element when I’d pull out cobras for him to play with. John told me that he had cancer and asked if I would take care of his charges when the time came. I felt humble, yet honoured that he had asked me! Some time later I was at Drayton Manor Park, helping him with some of his stock. He was cleaning out a young tiger snake with a hook that I had made for him (minihook). I could see he was having a bit of a struggle with this snake, so for some reason I just said “come here” and with my hook scooped it back into it’s box…. That split second of satisfaction of getting the snake into it’s box with one swipe was shattered when I looked at John !I suddenly realised what I had done.. I’d upstaged the grand master ! I felt awful. I said “John, I’m so sorry”. John turned to me and said “look, Paul your handling snakes all day, every day and it shows! Don’t be ashamed of your skills”. John is greatly missed, but his snakes are doing well (one of his Kings I’m holding in my profile photo). Moral of this story ? Onlookers can see how well you progress. Don’t take what you learn for granted.
Paul D. Rowley
Posted by
Hotherps
on November 15, 2002
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Expert ?
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Having followed this survey closely and reading between the lines, I think that there may be some confusion as to what exactly an “expert” is. I am sure part of the problem is due to the fact that many of us do not have a certificate to prove that we have reached a certain level in our profession. OK, so in the US a person can study
Herpetology and get a qualification, but this does not make them an expert handler!
Bill Haast is indeed a legend. I met him last year, just an incredible guy. How many of us will reach 90 + and be as fit as him, let alone still be handling our snakes ?. Bill is
an “expert” handler, he could even be called an “expert” snake bite victim… he must know more about how it feels to be bitten that any of us.
However Bill is not the only “expert” alive, there are plenty of others. Some 26 of us
have ticked the expert box on this survey…. In my eyes, if someone is working with venomous snakes for a living, they are a professional, and given that they have gained sufficient skill, I would then call them an expert. There are also quite a few private
keepers who I would term experts.
A Paramedic, Doctor, Fireman, Solider, Cop etc. are all experts… at least I hope so.
All of these people receive specific training and have to pass exams. It is quite different for professional venomous handlers… we learn from our peers and also are often self taught. I do not have any formal qualification as a venomous handler yet I care for Britain’s biggest venomous collection. (major venom research lab).
I have a Home Office Licence and am the only person in the UK regularly extracting venom ( which is now considered an animal experiment, hence H.O. licence). Does this make me an expert? Well the H.O. have asked me to help set up a training course in venomous handling, so I hope so !
Posted by
Hotherps
on November 15, 2002
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Expert? No!!!!
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I think anyone can't call himself (or herself) an expert. I'm sure that Bill Haast is possible the most experienced man in the world, but he has bitten 170 times. Of course, I'm happy for him- he's still alive.
But I think that nobody can get the absolute grade of EXPERT, because all the days you learn, you will NEVER learn all about snakes.
At most, you'll be an experienced one.... or this is what I believe.
Jurliki (excuse me for my low level in english)
Posted by
Jurliki
on November 14, 2002
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It depends,
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I've been handleing non-venomous for 40 years or so and I would consider myself advanced there,I've been handleing venomous for about 22 years, but only GA natives.With those I would consider myself advanced,but with anything else, such as elapids, I would definately consider myself a novice.
Posted by
Marty1st
on November 13, 2002
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snake handling
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i think i'm good at snake handling even tho i only handled non poisoness snakes..cause theres not that much danger snakes where i live..but i'm good for a teenager..
Posted by
snakekid
on November 13, 2002
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Advanced
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I checked the advanced box. I feel that I have had enough encounters with snakes both "hot and not", to know my limits. I don't know what truely makes anyone an expert (# of yrs. handling, # of times bitten if any, species handled ect.), but I would think maturity is a key element. I try not to handle any snake very much if I can help it. There are many diff. methods for handling snakes and I have used several myself (hooks, tongs, tailing, pinning). I always try to be as safe as I can when handling ANY species. I have never handled an elapid before, nor any snake over 13 ft. But still I think that not being bitten "at least not yet" tells me that I know what I am doing. That is all I can say for myself, I know what I am doing. I think this is a great survey question for a few diff. reasons. For one it should make all of us evaluate ourselves and our own ability, maybe some of us will think about this survey the next time we handle a snake. Anyway God Bless and Be Safe.
Bgabonica1
Posted by
Bgabonica1
on November 13, 2002
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the Haast debate
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Let's face it, if YOU could shrug off a coral snake bite as being a minor annoyance or a Cobra bite as possibly ruining your afternoon at best, wouldn't you be a bit less careful?
The law of averages catches up after awhile. As to the rediculous cop comparison, I think that to be a little more realistic, you need to change it to "If a cop goes on the beat for 40 years AND is in 500 or so shootouts every day and kills 170 civillians...." that may be a tiny bit closer to applicable.
There is also the question of style, if you are 100% tongs and hook, fine, but Bill prefers freehandling, that just the way he works, he's comfortable with it AND with the bites that go along with it. To each thier own. I've seen him handle many animals and it is truly amazing to watch. He does things I wouldn't dare, but he can afford to.
As to myself- I've been bitten once, my fault, I screwed up. I've been keeping hots for almost 14 years, sometimes over 200 animals. Am I the best? Hell No! Am I still alive and have all my digits? yup. Am I comfortable working with hots? yup. - That's my $.02.
-LL
Posted by
venom
on November 12, 2002
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Novice here
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I clicked on novice because I figure I have plenty to learn. With 30+ years of snake keeping behind me, I can always learn something from the snakes. I'll leave the "Expert" status to guys like Paul. I think I'm a better snake wrangler than Mark O'Shea, but that isn't saying a great deal LOL....
Posted by
TomT
on November 12, 2002
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I think im gonna stick to my guns on this one Mr, king cobra fan. I don't care what anyones defence of the man is; 170 times is rediculous no matter how many milks and I think the mans an awesome fellow,but i think he enjoys the hype. David Horton is only 1 example that i no of, but he has been milking for many yrs, mainley rattlers, but they are quik and he hasn't been hit yet. There are many more, some that you folks mentioned that have been doing it for yrs and you don't hear about them getting blasted every month. One more thing, Please don't insult me just because you don't agree, that's what makes our FORUM better than all the rest.
Posted by
Brick
on November 12, 2002
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Your "cop kills civilians" analogy is not only ridiculous but doesn't apply one iota to what we're talking about here. Since you're so well-versed in what's "expert-like"
or what the "correct precautions on every milk" are, why don't you fill in those of us
not as knowledgeable as yourself? Maybe also
name even one of your "milking pros" who've
been doing it for years without getting bitten. How many snakes? What species? Cooled
off before handling? Not holding my breath at all waiting for your answer.
Bill H.
kcf
Posted by
KingCobraFan
on November 11, 2002
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Simple math
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Simple math says that anyone milking 500 snakes a day for any period of time is going to get bit. I, too, have met Bill Haast and I can tell you he does not get bit for the publicity. So some folks think he is an expert and others do not. Okay, we agree to disagree. If Bill comes by and answers our survey and chooses to defend his 170 (or so) bites, that would be awesome! But since I doubt he has time in his day to support our mundane maunderings, let's just stick to defending our own positions. I am fine with the fact that I am not an expert after 26 years of experience. How far below expert depends entirely on who I am with, who is watching and more importantly what snakes we are dealing with at the moment.
Karl H. Betz
Buzztail1@hotmail.com
Posted by
Buzztail1
on November 11, 2002
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I agree! the man is good,(I guess) and I have had the chance to see him twice in the 80s, but even so, if a cop goes 40 yrs on the beat and kills 170 civilians mistakenly, is he an expert? I hardly think so. There is no exuse in being bitten that many times no matter how many you've done, because your either to relaxed, which is not expert like or just not taking the correct precautions on every milk. Come on 170 times, please; there are pro's out there that have been milking for yrs and never get bit, especially 4-5 times a yr. Scott
Posted by
Brick
on November 11, 2002
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Bill Haast
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Hey, I've watched Bill Haast handle up close, and I'll guarantee you he is as good as you can get. And it's 2 million milkings, 170 bites. He said that there were times when he would milk 500 snakes in a day. He has easily handled more snakes than anyone alive.
CH
Posted by
Chris_Harper
on November 11, 2002
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I don't know, There is a fellow at Va Tech, who has been milking snakes for 30+ yrs and has NEVER been bitten, I would almost guess that Bill enjoys the attention he gets from all the bites. Its kind of his claim to fame!but Im glad we have him>
Posted by
Brick
on November 11, 2002
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Reply to Brick
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If you ever get up to 3 million-some handlings and are only bitten 169 (at last count) times, we'll be happy to call you an expert, too.
Sincerely,
Bill Huseth
Posted by
KingCobraFan
on November 11, 2002
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I don't see how anyone could say that Bill Haast is an expert, He might have handled a lot of snakes, but he's been bitten more than anyone alive and that's no expert. He is a pioneer on antivenom, but expert handler; he is not!!!
Posted by
Brick
on November 10, 2002
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Novice
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Well I checked the novice box. I have been handling many nonvenomous species for over 12 years. I also train people from several rescue organizations in handling non-hots. I have been keeping and handling hots for about the last 4 years. Though I feel confident in my ability, it is because I do not try to impress other with my skill (or lack of it) and always try to avoid any situations where I could possibly be biten. I currently keep 9 hots 0f 7 different species.
I have always believed in limited handling that may make me appear better than I am, but it does show that I am smarter than some would give me credit for. I have always been envious of those who are good enough to just pick up a hot snake by the tail or grap it behind the head, but do not feel a strong desire to do so myself, mainly because I have no reason to do so.
Posted by
vettesherps
on November 9, 2002
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Paul Rowley and other experts....
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I'd wouldn't hesitate to that say Paul is an expert and he has given sufficient background to prove it! I also know of some "amateur" keepers that are definitely expert handlers.
Let's not be so quick to judge these people. We want honest answers and besides......how can it be considered conceited if the poll is anonymous!?!?
Chris Harper
Posted by
Charper
on November 8, 2002
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Beginner
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Even though I have handled at least 25 Diffrent non-venomous species including a few very agressive Retics and Columbian Boas. I have only had the pleasure of handling 4 diffrent hots total
Posted by
burly
on November 8, 2002
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Given the years experience that Mr. Rowley has behind him I certainly would consider him an expert in this field. I was not singling anyone out with their comment I was just expressing my opinion on what an expert is. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Zach Orr
Posted by
PIGMAN
on November 6, 2002
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Sorry, it looks as though my comments might draw some reaction. The term "Expert" is brandished about in so many different areas of life, often a person is refferred to as an expert if they do a certain thing for a living.
This survey asked for Honest answers, so that is why I ticked the expert box... far fom being conceited, anyone who knows me will probably vouch for the fact that I am a affable guy. Yes I am proud of what I have been able to accomplish...at the age of seven I knew that I wanted to work with venomous snakes..and I have been very fortunate to have a job that I enjoy.
I understand the comment about "blowing ones own trumpet"...but to be honest I usually don't need to, as there are plenty of people who consider me to be an "expert handler".
As part of my work, I somtimes have to teach people how to handle venomous snakes.... how safe do you think they would feel if their trainer was not considered an expert ???
If I was going to learn some new dangerous skill, I would want to know that the person training me had confidence in his own abillity and would put him/herself forward as an expert...backed up with a good reputation !!
I apologize if I have offended anyone...sometimes what I say comes across the wrong way. Paul D. Rowley
Posted by
Hotherps
on November 6, 2002
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I guess it depends...
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As far as nonvenomous snakes go I can place myself up in the advanced category (at least I think I can...I hope I'm not being pompous). I've been handling nonvenomous snakes for 16 years. As for venomous I'd have to put myself at the novice level. I've had 3 years experience hooking and whatnot. But have not moved into the more advanced techniques like tailing or pinning. So far I've never needed to though. All of my snakes are very well behaved when it comes to staying on the hook. And I am not doing any venom extraction for research or other worthy reason.
Posted by
CopperheadJunkie
on November 6, 2002
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Anyone working with hots should atleast be a novice snake handler but those that consider themselves experts,? I think thats a bit conceded. The status of personal knowledge is not self given but labled by others around us. Too some, a person may be an expert, to others they may not be.
Posted by
PIGMAN
on November 6, 2002
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Expert ???
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Ok, so now I have ticked the “Expert” box, I guess I’d better justify myself before someone says that I am just some egotistical
sod ! I’ll give you some facts and let you decide if I make the grade.
I started keeping snakes in 1970. I grew up surrounded by exotics.,1979 joined Chester Zoo, worked my way up to become a Senior
Reptile Keeper and left after 14 years to take up my current position of Herpetologist in 1993.
I work exclusively with venomous snakes, single-handedly managing what is by far the largest venomous collection in the UK, with over 350 snakes of some 50 different species. I’m doing about 50,000 handlings a year, for cleaning, feeding and venom extraction. I have also done a fair amount snake wrangling for film work, including those featuring high-profile Herpetologists, many of whom I count as friends. I had the
honour of meeting Bill & Nancy Haast last year…. Very nice people !
Paul D. Rowley,
Herpetologist,
Alistair Reid Snake Venom Research Unit,
L.S.T.M.
UK
Posted by
Hotherps
on November 6, 2002
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snake handling
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I'll admit that I am no Bill Haast, but I could honestly say "advanced".
I have studied the snake handling methods of many herpetologists and "snake men" from around the world. Venom researchers, breeders, zoo keepers, snake charmers and tribal shamen that claim to have mystical powers over snakes.
I believe the best snake handler that I have ever seen is Bill Haast.
Posted by
newggtongs
on November 5, 2002
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