VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Thanks for voting! Your vote has been included in the results below. Which venomous snake would you be the most apprehensive about capturing in the wild? [Details: Adult specimen, RECORD SIZE; you are with one other person when you encounter this specimen and you both have only a hook and a bag. You have been commissioned to capture this specimen by a large zoo, and your snake tongs fell in a river yesterday. The pressure is on. You are at least 16 hours away from the nearest medical care.   Posted: Jan 02, 2003   (980 votes, 64 comments) by Chris_Harper
Survey Results
Coastal Taipan 10% (98) King Cobra 10% (98) Black mamba 59% (575) Fer-de-lance (B. asper) 11% (103) King brown 4% (35) Eastern diamondback 3% (34) Forest cobra 4% (37)
Survey Comments
worst snake I would not tangle with a king brown above all. If you're a herper you'll know why. Not saying I wouldn't for study or removal. A guy has to do what he has to do. Posted by ol3toes on March 12, 2003 Dendroaspis polylepis Size, agility and nervous disposition aside, Whith 16 hrs to nearest treatment the chance of death from an Elapid bite is pretty good. Chance of survival from the Bothrops bite is higher but so is the pain and suffering index (for the victim that is). Personaly, I think this is why callers are leaning toward Bothrops. Myself I'll go with Black Mamba. As they say in the classics: "Dead Men tell no tales". Posted by Snakebitelove on January 23, 2003 On a Trash Can? For the record, the King was a 9' Indo female, and I was having to tube feed her. She was thin and wouldn't eat when I got her. When I got her out one day to feed her, she rose up about 3', and came forward. I was parrying her away with my hook. Also, my Hotroom, which was 20' x 8', had only 5 1/2' x 12 1/2' of floor space. There were cages on all the walls. At one end of the room, there was a shelf about 12" up off the floor, which my ol'lady had a 6'x 3'Vision cage on, with a pair of Columbia Boas inside. As I backed away from the King, and came to the cage, I had to get up on it. As I did, she dropped down and turned away. Then I got her by the tail, and was back in control. I got her by the neck, and I told my ol'lady to come in the room, and hold the rest of her still while I tube fed her. Before and after that she was never a problem. I suppose I could have snatched her up with a pair of tongs, or smacked her away with my hook, but it wasn't really that big of a deal. Randy Ciuros Posted by RC on January 22, 2003 mamba the mamba has to be the smartest snake on the list, and the fastest. Not a good thing when mixed with is temper and territorial attitude. Posted by Crotalus64 on January 21, 2003 additional forums We're listening. We just don't have the means to work on it at the moment. The FTP isn't working right now. It's a big problem that we need to get fixed soon. CH Posted by Chris_Harper on January 17, 2003 Bothrops forum.... I'd like to second Matts request..:0) Posted by sierra on January 16, 2003 coagulation deficiencies .... "elevated heart rate and dificult respiration are common after Bothrops asper bites." ----------------- Severe disruption of blood chemistry, as most Crotalids can do quite nicely, can cause all the above problems as the heart has a much more difficult time moving the blood around. Cheers, BGF Posted by BGF on January 16, 2003 Most Dangerous This is a tough question because all of the snakes are dangerous. I work with kings, mambas, taipans and what I call a fer-de-lance. The king has a high yield of venom, but I just don't see it as being nearly as agressive as most mambas. Even the green mambas are fast and very agile strikers. The black mamba is simply a very dangerous snake. If you saw Jim Harrison from the Kentucky Reptile Zoo on Animal Planet you know what his answer was to a similar question. Jim has been envenomated 14 times and very near death 4 times. He said that it would probably be the mamba that would take him out. Handling a mamba with proper equipment is dangerous. Doing it without the proper equipment is just plain DUMB! What we are really talking about is which snake do you fear the most? Which one will kill you the quickest? I'll stick with the mamba. Posted by Cantil on January 16, 2003 Ok... ... As long as it stays that way,I can live with that. Posted by MattHarris on January 16, 2003 Matt... What do you mean? This IS the Bothrops forum! ;-) Cheers, Wolfgang Posted by CAISSACA on January 16, 2003 Request for Chris Harper Any chance we can get a Bothrops forum set up here? This is turning into a fun conversation. I remember when Pitviper.com had a Bothrops forum, but that site is long gone. Matt Harris Posted by MattHarris on January 16, 2003 Bothrops asper - attn: HerpNut Hmmm - I don't think our figures are actually all that far apart. If there are 10 deaths and 20 amputations annually in Guatemala from B. asper, then that figure compares quite nicely with that for Costa Rica, which is around 5 deaths per annum. Blurred vision and difficulty breathing can be caused by a number of things, not just neurotoxicity, and yellow vision is, I believe, a result of retinal bleeding. If difficulty in breathing is due to neurotoxicity, you should also observe ptosis (drooping eyelids), and paralysis of other facial and swallowing muscles. Nobody is denying that Bothrops asper is a very dangerous snake. You are right, it is not too difficult to find people with very bad experiences or loss of relatives due to B. asper in many rural parts of C. America - been there, done that - nothing is quite as effective in terminating a discussion of the value of venomous snakes as indicators of a healthy ecosystem and the importance of their conservation as being told that the other guy's brother died from a Bothrops bite. However, I just find it preferable to go by the published scientific literature in the first instance when it ocmes to assessing what clinical picture and what level of case fatalities a particular species really causes. I also don't see where Jonathan Campbell contradicts anything I have said here (and I am pretty familiar with his work). I am well aware that B. asper is the most feared snake in C. America. The reasons are obvious - large, fast, nervous, with a very dangerous bite, and remains common even in agricultural areas, hence a large number of bites. At the same time, most of the available scientific and clinical evidence simply does not support either particularly high case fatality rates when compared to some other species (including bushmasters and Crotalus durissus in parts of L. America), or clinically important neurtoxocity. It is a classical case where the snake that kills the most people is not necessarily the snake whose bite is most likely to kill you, because the most lethal snake may be rare. For instance, in much of SE. Asia, Calloselasma rhodostoma kills far more people than the king cobra, smply because it is common and frequently encountered, whereas king cobras are rarer and not encoutnered all that often. Nevertheless, few people would argue that it is better to be bitten by a king than by Calloselasma! Cheers, Wolfgang Posted by CAISSACA on January 16, 2003 Bothrops asper Nauyaca or Barba Amarilla, Bothrops asper is the most feared snake in Guatemala, Anti-venom is available. But maybe not as readily available as in Costa Rica since they manufacture the anti-venom in Costa Rica. Even with anti-venom, the bites of B.asper are seriously life threatening. Perhaps because the anti-venom is obiosly produced from Costa Rican Bothrops asper. And because bites of Bothrops asper are most common in the rural areas of dificult acces As far as Neuro-toxins it has been documented that blurried and yellow vision along with elevated heart rate and dificult respiration are common after Bothrops asper bites. However, there is also great tissue damage. My mentor was bitten by a 4 ft Bothrops asper At the La Aurora Zoological park in Guatemala City wich is located within 10 minutes of the IGSS Medical Center The best prepared for snake bite. He was administrated several vials of anti-venom yet his hand and fore arm swell so much the doctor had to make several cuts in his hand and fore arm to relieve the pressure. Now imagine being in northern Guatemala and being bitten by a Bothrops asper 8, 12, or 20 hours from medical attention... Bothrops asper is very common in those rural areas. I would guestimate that about 10 people die victims to Bothrops asper and say 20 more have a leg or arm amputaded. Anually!!! There is a good reason why Bothrops asper is fear so much. Im my last visit to Guatemala in which I stay down there less than 6 weeks, (Conting 1.5 weeks herping and 2 weeks in a little propety in the Atlantic coast 6 miles south off the borther with Belize) I witness 2 incidents the 8 year old who died and the 27 year old that had his leg amputated. As far as my information I trust Dr Jonathan Campbell autor of the book Venomous Reptiles of Latin America. I think Biology of Pit Vipers and Several other on Guatemalan Herpetofauna... such as Bothriechis aurifer and B. bicolor, Abronia lizards... I would also trust Guatemalan Herpetologist Herman Ibarra from the National Museum of Natural History of Guatemala. This guys have extensive knowledge in Guatemalan Herpetofauna. HERPNUT Posted by HERPNUT on January 16, 2003 Bothrops asper neurotoxicity - attn: HerpNut Just did a quick literature search on Bothrops asper and neurotoxicity - not one of the many papers dealing with the species mention clinically relevant neurotoxicity. A Mojave rattler-like scenario seems theoretically possible, but, as BGF says, it seems fairly unlikely, given the almost uniform lack of clinicaly relevant neurotoxicity in the entire genus (unlike in rattlesnakes). Certainly, there is nothing in the literature on it. To turn the discussion around, where did you get your information on neurotoxins in B. asper? (I'm not having a go at you, I'm genuinely interested - if there is good evidence for this, then it would be extremely interesting and warrant a lot of further investigation). Cheers, Wolfgang Posted by CAISSACA on January 16, 2003 Bothrops asper mortality Here is the most recent paper on snakebite epidemiology in Costa Rica: Sasa, M. & S. Vasquez (2003) Snakebite envenomation in Costa Rica: a revision of incidence in the decade 1990–2000. Toxicon 41:19–22. They estimate a mean yearly incidence of approx. 500 snakebites per annum in the country, with the number of deaths per annum ranging from 0 to 7 in that 11 year period. They don't give a mean for the annual mortality, but even if we go for a relatively high estimate of 5 per annum on average, that works out as a mortality rate of 1% overall. Bothrops asper is believed to cause approx. 50% of snakebites in the country, so een if every single death is caused by B. asper, that works out as a case fatality rate of 5/250 = 2% of bites. Obviously, a whole bunch of other variables come into it. Getting a full bite from a large specimen in a remote area will carry a much higher fatality risk, whereas the statistics also include bites by small specimens and presumably some dry or near-dry bites. Even so, a number of people have survived bad bites despite suboptimal treatment and evacuation procedures (see papers by David Hardy on B. asper bites to researchers in Central America - a number of severe bites by large specimens, and yet all survived, albeit with serious long-term consequences in several cases, includng one amputation). While I would hate to be bitten by a B. asper, and do find large specimens incredibly impressive, it certainly seems that its lethality is being exaggerated in some quarters. Cheers, Wolfgang Posted by CAISSACA on January 16, 2003 Attn Herpnut >I do not know where you guys are getting your info... ----------------------------------Weeeeeeellllllll we have had a bit to do with snake venoms. --------------------------->Barba Amarila, Bothrops asper is responsable for the most deaths and amputations of any venomous snakes in North (Mexico), Central and South America. About bites being rarely fatal in Costa Rica I highly doubt that... If you reread Wolfgang's post you'll see that it says 'fatal cases are now rare in Costa Rica due to excellent medical care and antivenom availability'. Thus, past epidemiological trends are no longer necessarily the case. > It would be interesting to gather a medical cencuss of how many Bites / Amputations and Bites / Death Ratios for Nauyaca B. asper alone. I will consult Dr. Jonathan Campbell in TX. He has extensive knowledge in the Herpectofauna of Central America. ---------------------------------------------- Um... errr.... I wouldn't exactly discount Wolfgang's experience in that area either. ---------------------------------------------- >Oh... Another thing that we should consider is the possible differences between B. asper from Guatemala and those from Costa Rica. Maybe they have different Toxic Venoms like Crotalus scutelatus do Type A has little Neurotoxins while type A-B is highly Neurotoxic. ---------------------------------------------- While this is certainly possible, I would have expected neurotoxic bites to have been reported in the literature. Which they have not. ---------------------------------------------- >HerpNut ---------------------------------------------- Cheers B Posted by BGF on January 16, 2003 Nauyaca, ;-) Bothrops asper neurotoxicity I do not know where you guys are getting your info... Barba Amarila, Bothrops asper is responsable for the most deaths and amputations of any venomous snakes in North (Mexico), Central and South America. About bites being rarely fatal in Costa Rica I highly doubt that... It would be interesting to gather a medical cencuss of how many Bites / Amputations and Bites / Death Ratios for Nauyaca B. asper alone. I will consult Dr. Jonathan Campbell in TX. He has extensive knowledge in the Herpectofauna of Central America. Oh... Another thing that we should consider is the possible differences between B. asper from Guatemala and those from Costa Rica. Maybe they have different Toxic Venoms like Crotalus scutelatus do Type A has little Neurotoxins while type A-B is highly Neurotoxic. HerpNut Posted by HERPNUT on January 16, 2003 Bothrops neurotoxicity I have to agree with BGF on that one. Bites by Bothrops asper have been studied extensively in many places, especially Costa Rica, and I have never heard of clinically significant neurotoxicity. Among Bothrops, the only one that apparently does have a clinically significant neurotoxic impact is B. jararacussu (which, incidentally, will give B. asper a good run for its money in terms of being the most impressive Bothrops!). It is true that B. asper and most other Bothrops do have some PLA2s with neurotoxic activity, but they don't seem to impact the clinical picture in human bite cases. In terms of lethality, most Bothrops lag way behind the neurotoxic populations of C. durissus. Even for B. asper, fatal cases are now rare in Costa Rica due to excellent medical care and antivenom availability. Even without a/v, of the snakes listed in the survey, it's probably the one whose bite you would be most likely to survive. Of course, it's also probably the one whose bite you will least *want* to survive as you watch your flesh rot away from your body... Cheers, Wolfgang Posted by CAISSACA on January 15, 2003 Attn: Matt Harris Hi mate, large vipers are certainly theoretically capable of a truely intramuscular bite. However, typically the bite will be SC and perhaps shallowly intramuscular. Cheers, BGF Posted by BGF on January 14, 2003 Sub-Q? for an asper? Brian, Are you sure Sub-Q would be most applicable for an asper bite? I measured a shed fang from my largest 2m+ female asper(a female from Manzanillo, Limon, Costa Rica)....and the fang straight line distance base-to-tip is 7/8", with distance along the curvature(using a string) of 1". Somehow, I think that would only be sub-cutaneous if it entered one side of my hand and stopped just short of popping out the other side. Is there something I'm overlooking here? I would think IM would be the appropriate route. Regards Matt Harris Posted by MattHarris on January 14, 2003 Attn: Herpnut This survey Q is turning into a nice forum ;-) Regarding the neurotoxicity of B. asper, I am not aware of any clinical or research data to support this. Ditto with it having a dramatically lower LD50. The intraperitoneal LD50 is 2.844 mg/kg, putting it inbetween Crotalus mitchelli pyrrhus (2.7 mg/kg) and Tropidolaemus wagleri (3.58 mg/kg). However, this is significantly less than Crotalus durissus terrificus (0.216 mg/kg), Crotalus scutulatus scutulatus (0.159 mg/kg) or Crotalus durissus durissus (0.667 mg/kg) The intravenous LD50 is 1.244 mg/kg, the same as Crotalus durissus durissus. However, this is considerably less than Crotalus tigris (0.056 mg/kg), Crotalus viridis concolor (0.0825 mg/kg), Crotalus scutulatus scutulatus (0.189 mg/kg). Subcutaneous LD50s are the most applicable to a real bite situation, the LD50 for this venom by this method has not been reported to my knowledge. However, I would be extremely surpised if there was a radical shift in relative toxicity. For more info on the LD50s, have a look in that section on my webpage www.venomdoc.com All the best Bryan Posted by BGF on January 14, 2003 Attn: MsTT MsTT: I completely understand what you mean... In Mexico and Cental America Bothops asper as well as many other Pit Vipers are kill on sight. Every campecino has a sharp machete on hanging on their belts like if it was a sword... On the other hand people that do not kill them and attemp to capture venomous specimens hurt them badly, because they are too afraid to get bitten that they pin them way to hard... ******************************************************************* QUOTE MsTT: If you don't feel confident that you can work an animal without fatally injuring it, please just leave it ALONE. ******************************************************************* I do not know what do you mean by this... If you are refering to my comment below...... ******************************************************************* QUOTE HERPNUT: I would trow the hook away... Why bother??? It would be useless... instead I would use two 8' ft long sticks and some rope. ******************************************************************* Understand that I am a Reptile Hobbiest at heart and the well being of the animals is my fore and most important consideration. Hooks would be useless. There is no way one could pin down a 9 ft Bothrops asper without causing serious or lethal damage to the vertebrae. I would have to improvise to safely capture and without hurting the specimen. Tools are useful... But, they do have their limitations. The two years in the Guatemalan military help me improvise and take advantage of natural resourses to more than just survive in the field. ;) ******************************************************************* I think you must have miss-undertand me!!!******************************************************************* HerpNut. Posted by HERPNUT on January 14, 2003 Attn: Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry Bryan: You are correct about the Fer-de-lance common name... I know that the Fer-de-lance name is widely used for many Bothops species. The name "Cuatro Narizes" (Four Nostrils) could also be used for any Pit-Viper species. The common name for Bothrops asper is "Nayuca" that is what native Central American indians call them. In Spanish the common name for B. asper is "Barba Amarilla" (Yellow Bearded). I do not really know the common name for B. asper in English... I have heard the name Terciopelo in reference to both B. asper and B. atrox. In regard to the Minimun Lethal Dose (mg/Kg) for B. asper is really low according to Dr. Jonathan Campbell. And the Neurotoxicity in Bothrops asper is higher than in Mohave Rattlesnakes (type A-B), Crotalus scutelatus and even higher that the Neo-Tropical Rattlesnake, Crotalus durissus ssp.I do not know if you have personnaly work with B. asper venom but it is my understanding that the amount of Neurotoxins is equal to the amount of Hemotoxins if not higher. Homo toxic hahaha... You are right there too!!! That was me spiting Spanish again ;) I have some experience with Bothrops asper and this snake deserves all the respect you can offer. I remember once taking photographs with my Mentor and friend German Ibarra from the Museum of Natural History of Guatemala. We found this 5'-6' ft Bothrops asper crossing a dirt road in northern Guatemala... That snake was fine for the first couple of pictures. Then it started chasing us to the truck. That snake did had a Demon inside. I have also seen several bites by Bothops asper... I will never forget an 8 year old girl that died to a bite of Bothrops asper. Or, a 27 year old guy whose leg was amputated above the knee also to a Bothrops asper bite. I have little experience with elapids a few Coral Snake species from Mexico and Central America and a couple of Cobras. But they do not seem to remotely compare to Bothrops asper in agility and acuracy. And they were nowhere close to match that short temper of Barba Amarilla, Bothrops asper. Barba Amarilla is one of my favorite Bothrops species. HerpNut. Posted by HERPNUT on January 14, 2003 Worse situation Working a big king in a small hots room where you end up getting chased on top of a trash can is a pretty bad situation. It would be a worse one if the snake in question was a black mamba of equal size. The trashcan wouldn't slow him down much; they can flow up and over things so easily you'd swear they were flying. A human standing on top of a trash can would make an attractive perch for an agitated and frightened arboreal snake that wanted to get up to the highest point in the room. Like Larry says, you can bluff or distract or stand off a king cobra with a hook. A big mamba can take control of that hook away from you and use it as a launching point to fly off anywhere it wants to, including in your face. I'll take the king over the mamba any day, thanks! Posted by MSTT on January 13, 2003 You guys are probably right, Im just thinking of Curios from down in Nc standing on a trash can in his hot room with a 13ft King trying to kill him and wondering what could be a worse situation! Posted by cottonmouth on January 13, 2003 So would I... ...but the survey question specified RECORD LENGTH, which for the mamba means over 14 ft... Posted by LarryDFishel on January 12, 2003 I certailey would like to see that 15ft mamba! Posted by cottonmouth on January 10, 2003 What compares... ...to a 15 foot venomous snake? A 15 foot venomous snake that will climb your hook too fast for you to stop him (like a mamba) as opposed to a King that will (usually) fixate on the hook if you wave it front of his face! Like CH says, a record King would be more like 19 ft, otherwise there would be no coparison in my book. Posted by LarryDFishel on January 10, 2003 Record King Think more along the lines of >19 feet + . webmaster Posted by Chris_Harper on January 10, 2003 King Cobra, what compares to a 15ft venomous snake? I would bag a black mamba any day before attempting the KING! Posted by cottonmouth on January 10, 2003 Dendroaspis Polylepis My vote goes for thy highness in speed: B. Mamba. And also for its bad temperament. Posted by Jurliki on January 9, 2003 King I guess I have worked with all of these species in captivity and caught a number of them in the wild. I’d go with the King Cobra, simply due to it’s sheer size. I see that the Black mamba seems to be the one most people are opting for… The reference to Steve Irwin and thinking about him catching that Black Mamba makes me smile because in the same program is a shot of a Black Mamba entering a hut and eating a mouse…..this was shot here in Liverpool and I had hold of his tail while he swallowed the mouse …..(freehandling,not recommend, but I know my limits) I normally use 24” cage hooks for my blacks (7’- 9’) and a 36” cage hook for my big King Cobras…Its sod’s law that you come across snakes when you don’t have a hook with you….I’ve caught wild snakes by hand or improvised. If I was out snake hunting I’d take a Probagger and either a 36” cage hook or more likely my stump-ripper. The stump-ripper has the added advantage of doubling as a walking stick on rough terrain and making pick-pockets think twice…..certainly in some of the African countries that I’ve worked in..Paul D. Rowley Posted by Hotherps on January 7, 2003 Here's a question Which of the snakes on the list would you be LEAST apprehensive about catching under the circumstances outlined? For me the EDB would be the easiest, followed by the big king (they're slow compared to some other elapids and not too bad to pin). I've only had a few opportunities to handle the Aussie elapids, and they seemed terribly squirmy and slippery on a hook but not too bad overall, so they'd be next on my "willing to take a crack at it" list. A big forest cobra can be extremely fast and nasty and would cause me to seriously sweat the capture, assuming I could even capture it before it hit the bushes at full speed! A large annoyed black mamba is very much no fun even when I have my tongs. I have restrained medium sized ones for medication by hooking, tailing and pinning but a large one with no tongs would give me the willies. I'd still take a shot at it with a competent handler behind me to tail and pin the body so I could get a solid pin on the neck. B. asper scores the highest on my uh-oh list if I had to pin the animal, but there's a reasonable chance I could maneuver it gently into a bag so I'd still take a crack. I really think that my physical strength would be insufficient to reliably control a record sized animal and I would not want to risk trying and failing. Posted by MSTT on January 7, 2003 Fer de lance? The reason that I chose Fer de-lance as the common name for B.asper is because it is the common name that it is most commonly called by worldwide. Terciopelo is the local common name for B.asper, but very few people outside of the venomous community or Costa Rica know that. ~CH Posted by Chris_Harper on January 7, 2003 Hey Herpnut I've had to clean up far too many horrendous veterinary messes made by people who are so scared of venomous snakes that they use rough and extreme methods of capturing them. Infected noose wounds, shattered ribs, broken jaws, deep punctures and gashes, etc. I see quite a few broken spines, most of which are untreatable and must be euthanized, because some (substitute unprintable obscenity here) was so scared of the animal that they used lethal force to catch it. If you don't feel confident that you can work an animal without fatally injuring it, please just leave it ALONE. There are times I've seriously wanted to hop a plane to Africa and kick some stupid snake catcher butt, and you would too if you saw some of their handiwork. Posted by MSTT on January 7, 2003 Attn: Herp nut Hi mate Just a quick couple corrections (not trying to nitpick, just clarify a few things: Fer de lance = B. lanceolatus. B. asper is Barba amarilla and B. atrox is Terciopelo (although I'm pretty tired right now so it could be the other way around in asper and atrox). In any case, the true fer de lance is a smallish snake and no where near the demon that B. asper and B. atrox (and a number of others). However, which one was the question referring to? As CH is a very competent herper, then I assume that the common name was used even though he knew it was wrong for the scientific name simply because he knew most people would associate the two (i.e. thing of the fer de lance as being a large mental snake (i.e. asper or atrox) and not know the common error (and not knowing what a barba ammarilla or terciopelo was). The lethal dose of Bothrops (and other pit vipers from the Americas) species is typically greater than 100 mgs. Neurotoxicity is known from Bothrops species but it is not a major clinical feature. As for it being 'homo toxic', it'll also kill straight people ;-p However, its also hemotoxic and can do a number on blood chemistry ;-) Cheers B Posted by BGF on January 7, 2003 JoshHutto Such a trick question. There are 2 snakes I wouldn't try to capture with just a hook and a friend with a hook. The King cobra and Black Mamba would be virtually impossible with such equipment unless you did a Steve Irwin impression and wrestled the things (lol). I haven't dealt with coastal taipans or King browns but don't think it would be out of my comfort lvl to capture. This leaves the psychotic forest cobra, the fanatical fer-de-lance and the patient sniper EDB. Of those 3 I've dealt mostly with EDB's and feel confident with my abilities in handling them. The fer-de-lance is just crazy but predictably crazy in my opinion, and I can deal with that ( 4 yrs with my ex-fiance taught me that, lol ). So I would have to say that the one snake that I would attempt to capture but would make me the most APPREHENSIVE is the Forest Cobra. I've seen some FC's that would strike at every thought of movement then suddenly allow you to move them with no aggression then just as suddenly fly off the handle. And let's not belittle their bite, it has more then enough kick to knock any person on their rear-end for good. So I guess my choice is based on the knowledge of my handling skills and the fact that every snake on that list can kill you without medical attention so venom really doesn't matter in this circumstance since if you are bitten you are dead no matter which animal bites you. Oh yeah let me introduce myself to everyone. My name is Joshua Hutto and I have recently moved back to S. Carolina so that I can reassume my love and desire to keep hots. Posted by JoshHutto on January 6, 2003 Bothrops asper Wow... This is too much!!! The Fer-de-Lance is also known as Terciopelo, Barba Amarilla, Vivora Cuatro Narices, Nauyaca. All are Bothorps asper. The snake responsable for the most deaths and limb amputations in Latin America. Besides the incedibly agility and speed of this snake... And the short temper of this species. The fact is that the venom is strongly neuro toxic as well as homo toxic, Bites are NASTY. Lethal Dose is 6-8 mg. and a record specimen could easily yeild 800-1000 mg. We are talking about capturing a 9 ft + specimen... And out in the wild!!!! Any one here can picture a tropical Rainforest??? I would die capturing such a specimen. I would trow the hook away... Why bother??? It would be useless... instead I would use two 8' ft long sticks and some rope. I would not capture such a snake without a hand gun to kill my self just in case I was bitten. OMG. Adrenaline just thinking about it. lol My mentor was bitten by a 4 ft B. asper being 10 minutes from the best snake bite ready medical center. He nearly lost his hand and fore arm with this bite. In the Serpentarium of the Museum of Natural History of the University of San Carlos, in Guatemala, Central America. There is a near 9' ft long 27 yr captive. This snake is as thick as an 7-8 ft Burmese Python. The Head alone is 3.75" inches long!!! This is one scary snake. HerpNut Posted by HERPNUT on January 6, 2003 Black Mamba I am going to have to go with the Black Mamba. Though it was a toss up between it the Forest Cobra and B.Asper. I made my decision on the snake's agility, speed, and temperment. So, since they say the Black Mamba is the fastest snake when it comes to speed that will be my final answer! Posted by RepFan on January 6, 2003 Chis is hell-bent on us not having our tongs...lol...better make sure there are piranha at the bottom of that deep river guarding them.... Posted by sierra on January 5, 2003 LOL Did I forget to mention it was a really, really deep river? LOL CH Posted by Chris_Harper on January 5, 2003 PS Hey Chris, I'm going swimming in the river for my tongs. And after going through all that trouble to catch a record specimen, the zoo can blow it out their ear cuz I'm bloody well keeping it. LOL In all seriousness I re-read the question and noticed there were two handlers each with a hook, which makes the situation a *lot* easier - one can tail and parry and the other has both hands free to execute a pin on the front of the animal. As long as the other person with me was someone whose skills I trusted, I'm much more sanguine about tackling everything on the list except the B. asper which would still be too strong and fast to wrestle with. And the faster elapids would still most likely speed off through the bushes. "You should see the one that got away, mate....'ee were THIS big!" You can get record specimens every time that way. LOL Posted by MSTT on January 5, 2003 Bothrops asper Have worked with some of these psychos and on a slick floor i've seen them strike MORE than there body length. Another thing that would be a horribly painfull death. At least an elapid usually doesnt cause much pain and if it did you wouldnt feel it within an hour ;) Posted by DougW on January 4, 2003 Zoo better be serving up some serious money! The snake that would make me most apprehensive is the one that presents the greatest probability for a bad outcome in your scenario. The worst outcome, obviously, is death. Snakes with predominantly tissue-destructive venoms kill mostly through hypovolemic shock and or internal hemorrhage, whereas those with predominantly neurotoxic venoms kill by extinguishing the physical ability to breathe. Tissue-destructive venoms carry the potential for an additional bad outcome: loss of appendages due to necrosis. While there may be some here that would rather die than live without certain appendages, my main objective is avoiding death. As far as I know, my heart and lungs are in good shape so I may be able to endure hypovolemic shock or internal hemorrhage (excepting intracranial hemorrhage) for a while. Respiratory paralysis, however, would be an insurmountable obstacle in the absence of medical treatment. This means I would be more apprehensive of the listed snakes possessing predominantly neurotoxic venoms, namely taipan, mamba, and the cobras. To sort this list of finalists, I would use the likelihood of landing a bite which, in my opinion, equals speed + agility + aggression. If you toss in “record size”, the black mamba tops my list. I would like to point out that I’m not slighting the lethal abilities of the EDB or Fer-de-lance here, but the great majority of my venomous experience is with North American crots. I feel I would be able to nab the EDB without getting tagged. I’m not sure about the B. asper, though. A buddy of mine spent two weeks in Panama, and he brought back a video of himself bagging a juvenile jararaca (B. atrox). The thing was maniacal! Bagging a record size asper displaying similar tendencies / abilities with a hook only would be out of the question for me. The mulga? Don’t know much about them, but would like to learn. My understanding is that they will rot your leg off, but won’t land you on a ventilator. Am I right? Posted by WK on January 4, 2003 fun,fun,fun...... Hi all, I went with B. asper.....have yet to set my eyes on these yet! Taipans and Mulgas..I both keep...I have bagged a near record/ if not record Mulga 9 foot 7 inches with a hoop bag....hook was useless due to the weight of the snake! And wolfgang just a note on the relative ease of big mulgas....literally chasing you over 15 feet mouth open and head 2.5 feet off deck...not that easy and not laided back! I have handled and bagged an 8 foot captive Coastal...fairly nasty but again a hoop bag is a great invention! I would app about all of them but more so the non aussie sp. But knowing me I would probably at least try to bag the lot! Regards, Scott Eipper Posted by BLACKSNAKE on January 3, 2003 King cobra A record specimen would be over 18 ft.Close to 20.Too much snake for just a hook, especially one thats wild and agitated. Posted by Marty1st on January 3, 2003 BLACK MAMBA, try to run : GOOD LUCK Posted by toxicbite on January 3, 2003 Oh man! it's got to be the King; A snake that reaches the size of a Python with toxic venom and mega high yield. Posted by chewwy on January 3, 2003 The asper.... ..would probably be the only one I actually look at as fun, but then again I'm not really an elapid enthusiast but I love the large neo-tropical pitvipers. Hell I may actually volunteer to do it. I've bagged some that are quite cooperative and others(usually males) that just don't cooperate. It's like being a Jedi--ya' gotta use the "Force". Now if they just wouldn't retain eyecaps, life would be just peachy!!! Posted by MattHarris on January 3, 2003 I currently keep everything listed except the Fer-de-lance and EDB, but I do have experience with large EDB's, and I do have a pair of adult Eastern x Western DB's, the male being almost 6'. No experience with B.Asper at all, yet. I also keep a pair of Common Browns, a Papuan Blacksnake, and an E. Green Mamba. While my specimens are not RECORD size, I do have an idea of what each is like, and I also have to choose the record sized Black Mamba. MsTT's idea of rigging together an open catch bag with a stick is definitely gonna make things easier. Good thinking Tanith. I also like Brians idea of the Survivor Show. What a rush that would be. Randy Ciuros (Venom Street) Posted by RC on January 3, 2003 Hard decision but... I have had the opportunity to work with large wild caught specimens of all the snakes listed except for the Coastal Taipan, however, I have handled quite a few New Guinea Taipans of significant size. The Black Mamba is quite a handfull, but overrated as to it's difficulty in handling and restraining. Of this list the only snake that I have truly feared to try and restrain and put in a bag is a healthy and agitated King Cobra..PERIOD. Bagging Mambas, Taipans, and Forest Cobras with the hook/tail method is fairly easy. Doing this with a very large king is all but impossible unless it just happens to decide to let you put it in the bag:-) I would put a large B. asper in second place. Posted by atheris on January 3, 2003 Black Mamba I have to admit I would be a little leary of most snakes in that condition, but I think I would be most apprehensive about the black mamba. I have never handled an elapid before, but I have seen them do some pretty amazing things before. I would have to say that B. asper is a close runner-up for me. Bgabonica1 Posted by Bgabonica1 on January 3, 2003 Whittling a bagstick.... Permit me a supple branch to rig a crude bagstick or just to keep the mouth of the bag standing open on the ground and I'll take a crack at any of these snakes. I would almost certainly fail with the mamba and the forest cobra; they're just too damn fast and would probably end up escaping. Getting my hands on them for medication is a bugger of a job and I want my tongs for it! With no tongs or bagger they end up flying all over the place and are nearly impossible to catch. In the wild they'd just be gone. I've caught a lot of Easterns with no more than a hook, though I prefer to lift them gently into a capture box to avoid stress. I would not like to have a direct contest of strength with a record sized B. asper as it would probably win, so this one might get away from me too if I could not gently maneuver it into the bag. I wouldn't care to attempt a pin. Posted by MSTT on January 3, 2003 Black mamba mambas are the most dangerous strikers fast and effective! If you are not able to survive a bite you should not even keep hot snakes! Since I am nearly immune to black mamba venom. I have a unique ability to take a mamba bite green/black with no meds!. I have no problems with any snakes as being scary or hard to get with bare hands. ps. the book on self immunization is almost out! check out the site at ksnake.com great lakes serpentarium page. dont have the new url sorry. Harold Posted by Bud on January 3, 2003 How much did you say the zoo is paying? ;-) I have personal experience of taipans, large rattlers, large B. asper, and some cobras, but not forests. My vote went to the coastal taipan, but the truth is I would abort mission with both taipans and mambas, and be ready to back out for king cobra and forest cobra. The really large king browns are apparently not that bad (not that I have any personal experience with them...), and since I have already caught some large Bothrops with nothing but a bag and hook, I am of the belief that this is feasible. Ditto for the rattler. Posted by CAISSACA on January 3, 2003 tough question I would really be nervous about any of the forementioned and very reluctant of the mamba. As far as the EDB, though scary thought, I would jump at the chance!! I live at the Ga coast [Brunswick] and have seen first hand what these critters are like--MASSIVE.Never had the oppurunity to get more than a 6 footer, but would have to try a record snake. Question to you: the EDB strikes at about 6ft per second-- how fast are the mambas? How about the others??? Posted by ZX11 on January 3, 2003 Black Mamba, definitely... Though I don't have experience with all the snakes on that list, I've at least worked with snakes similar to them. But having two D. angusticeps (EA Green mambas) in my care at this time, I think I can say with certainty that above all, I'd be most apprehentious about catching a D. polylepis measuring over 14'. That'd be like catching a king that is two times as fast and three times as smart (lol...scary thought). Seeing the agility of my large male EA Green, and him only being 5' or so in length, I can easily appreciate what a 14'+ mamba would be capable of. Putting it mildly, that snake would probably be able to lift itself higher than the average human is tall, so giving you many quick pecks on top of the head wouldn't be too terribly difficult. A record coastal tai would also be very interesting, having to be over 12'. Any elapids that get THAT big and are able to pack THAT big of a punch automatically deserve respect. Posted by Chance on January 2, 2003 Well.... I have zero hands on experience with the Down Under snakes & with the Ophiophagus, so I can't see even giving them a try under those circumstances. Forget the asper. I have worked with them & know better, thanks. I would probably capture the adamanteus. With or without the assist. I have worked with the melanoleuca & the mamba. I voted for the mamba, but the melanaleuca could as well give me the same pucker factor. ~~Greg~~ Posted by GREGLONGHURST on January 2, 2003 pick your venom Well, needless to say we would have aborted the mission under the stated conditions, however, lets humor Chris ;0), we have handled every animal on the list with exeption of the taipan, so based on that, both my and my husband's vote would go to the B.asper...they are truely incredable snakes...and are one of the few that will seem to ambush you if you pursue it,(strong claim but its true)our 6'+ female will act as if shes fleeing but suddenly double-back moving to tag you, its totally unreal, and we've never had any other animal even compare to her, she seems to have quite a high IQ for a snake.(although she can be phsycotic once do get her)Harry Green has also wrote accounts of the asper ambushing him in Costa Rica, where it will quicky move away but would dead stop under a palm leaf or behind a tree and turn to wait for the pursuer to follow, and striking the instant your in range...but you gotta admit, it still sounds fun..lol..(and the record asper would most likely be over 9 feet, someone once told me to consider it to be a mamba with heat seeking abilities or a Adamanteus with climbing agility....All that aside.. any snake on the list can definately catch you in a mistake..and if you cant confidently capture it, it wouldnt be worth the risks involved, even for the record...but ya never know, I could see us still "going for it" but I'd like to say we'd have more brains than....well you get the idea...fun question to think about though... sierra Posted by sierra on January 2, 2003 All the scenarios sound like fun. Why don't we do them all as some sort of survivor show? ;-p Posted by BGF on January 2, 2003 No way you can nab B.asper in the costa rican rainforest with only a hook!?!?! And at record size being upwards of 9 ft and mean as hell. At least with the elapids you can tail um a bit and that may make it a little less stressfull but having a very large very toxic and very skiddish asper in the rainforest floor would be quite a accomplishment to bag with a hook. Just my opinion, then again, I do love sum bothrops, Jared Posted by jared on January 2, 2003 EDB - 16 hours from ER Before anyone gets started on the eastern diamondback being 16 hours away from medical care, I guarantee you that I can strand you on one of Georgia's uninhabited barrier islands with no cell phone and easily achieve that parameter. Also, the EDB in question would have to be OVER 8 FEET long. Remember, the question is which one of these snakes would you be MOST APPREHENSIVE about attempting to capture. Not whether you would do it or not. webmaster Posted by Chris_Harper on January 2, 2003 Actually... ...I would be uncomfortable around anyone who would consider trying most of these under the stated conditions (except maybe the Diamond back, and I don't know enough about the Fer-de-lance or Forest Cobra to know whether those are suicidal or not). Posted by LarryDFishel on January 2, 2003 Simple. I don't handle Semi/Arboreal hots to often. Posted by KDAPReptiles on January 2, 2003 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!