VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Thanks for voting! Your vote has been included in the results below. The Florida Fresh Water Fish and Game Commission is raising the annual fee on the Venomous Permit. Rumor has it that it is supposed to go as high as $100.00. If it is raised to $100.00 would/will you pay it?   Posted: Jun 07, 2003   (388 votes, 27 comments) by crotalisviridishelleri
Survey Results
I'll pay the $100 and be glad to do it. 40% (156) I'll pay the $100, but I'm not going any higher. 10% (38) I'll consider it if it remains at $25 or less. 4% (16) I'll consider it if it remains at $50 or under 5% (18) I'll still keep them even without a Venomous Permit 23% (89) I'll just stop keeping venomous animals 1% (5) I don't keep venomous reptiles anyway 17% (66)
Survey Comments
greaaat well now for me to do free educational shows is going to cost me $450 a year now. unless they raise the bond required to exhibit venomous as well. better not give em any ideas. this is getting VERY cost prohibitive to do things right. Posted by venom on June 22, 2003 Guess what?????? Looks like they raise the EPB permit to. http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=44312,44312 This means if you want to keep and sell your venomous reptiles it's going to cost you $350.00 Posted by Mata on June 19, 2003 I'll check I'll get some stats for you. ~CH Posted by Chris_Harper on June 19, 2003 I wonder out of those 80 how many buy the farm. Grey Posted by chewwy on June 19, 2003 Bite rate I think Florida has about 80 exotic bites a year. ~CH Posted by Chris_Harper on June 19, 2003 Does the difference show? I wonder what the difference is in bite rates per capita of venomous keepers between Florida and a non permit state like PA. My guess is that Florida has a higher bite rate, but that's just my take and could be skewed by media reporting and the presence of the av bank. I guess my point is this, if your paying that kind of increase for a permit system (let's not kid ourselves, it won't stop at $100) then it sure would be nice to see measurable results over a state where there is no fee for keeping (and I like it that way). my .02 Steve Posted by biff on June 19, 2003 Reality check The former cost of $5 for a permit didn't even cover the basic clerical costs and postage. $100 is a much more fair and reasonable amount that will come closer to the actual expenses of sending an officer for inspection to make sure that caging conditions are secure and humane. In a perfect world, everybody would be a responsible keeper and we wouldn't need a regulatory agency making sure that people were keeping their venomous snakes appropriately. But this isn't a perfect world and there are people who should definitely not be allowed to keep hots if they can't get their skills or their caging up to a good professional standard. I would like to see the same licensing standards instituted for iguanas and large pythons. It would save a lot of suffering and mistreatment of these animals if people had to demonstrate appropriate knowledge, skills and housing conditions before being allowed to keep them. I do not like to see children keeping iguanas as disposable pets and feeding them lettuce and fruit cocktail - the result is horrendous suffering and a slow, miserable death for the animal. I am tired of finding homes for sick, malnourished, hot rock scarred Burmese pythons that have been abused and then dumped by their owners who didn't bother thinking about the adult size of these snakes before they bought a cute baby. I do not want to see illiterate drunken rednecks keeping rattlesnakes in 10 gallon aquariums at room temperature and making newspaper headlines by doing something stupid with the snake. These kinds of situations reflect poorly on all reptile keepers, and if they are allowed to continue the end result is that we all could lose our right to keep these animals. I much prefer to see a good licensing system in place that helps prevent some of these abuses. Posted by MSTT on June 17, 2003 fl_governor@eog.state.fl.us This is a copy of the email I sent to Governor Bush on May 5th. I included my phone number in the original. I immediately recieved an automated response that said they had received it. And then I later received the response below my letter: Governor Bush, My name is Karl H. Betz. I am the Vice President of the Southeastern Hot Herp Society which is an organization of venomous reptile enthusiasts whose main purpose is conservation of venomous reptiles through public education. I am concerned about the proposed 20 fold increase in the price for a venomous reptile keeping permit. One of my concerns is that the increase will prevent good people who are otherwise qualified to keep venomous reptiles from applying for the permit. Throughout the nation, Florida has been held up among venomous keepers as the perfect example of how the permit system should work. I would hope that you would strongly consider the possibility that this increase will only cause people to keep venomous reptiles illegally rather than come up with an exorbitant fee. Already, with the current fee system there are people who do not attempt to get their permit. I, personally, do not condone these actions and hold the Florida permit sytem to be the best example in the nation of why permits should be required. Keeping the fee in a reasonable range will allow people, like myself and many others, to continue with our work of acquainting the public with the venomous snakes of their area so that they know what to avoid in their own back yards. One of the things that I often deal with is people who have relocated from northern states to the south, who have never seen a cottonmouth or rattlesnake. It is tremendously helpful to be able to legally show them live specimens that they can later recognize in their neighborhoods. Keeping the current fee system will allow the people who are involved in venomous reptiles for anything other than the money-driven pet trade to participate in their hobby/passion without a major financial outlay. An increased fee will only be affordable to the people who are making money from their reptiles. I am proud to say that I have never accepted a fee for any of my presentations or lectures. I believe that education is a very important aspect of what your government stands for. As many of the people keeping venomous reptiles provide an excellent free source of learning available to an already beleagered school system, I hope that you will reconsider this fee increase. Respectfully, Karl H. Betz Vice President, Southeastern Hot Herp Society www.venomousreptiles.org The response: Thank you for your e-mail to Governor Bush expressing your view on legislation approved by the Florida Legislature. The Governor asked that I respond on his behalf. The Governor’s staff follows all bills as they move through the legislative process and apprises him of their progress. Please be assured, when this legislation is presented to Governor Bush for consideration, he will keep in mind the important issues you and other concerned Floridians have shared with him. Again, thank you for taking the time to write to the Governor. Your thoughts are very important to him. Respectfully, J. Travis Coker Executive Office of the Governor Posted by Buzztail1 on June 16, 2003 Justicitation... I can't find it now, but I recall someone posting a link a while back (on kingsnake I think) to a report about the (then) proposed increase. It said they calclated that the annual cost for administering a permit, salary, gas, and general vehicle expenses for the officer doing the inspections plus clerical work came out to about $135 per permit. I think that is probably a reasonable estimate of the cost. Again, I'm not entirely sure that's relevant since the permit system is something that is inflicted on us due to the fear of others rather than something for our benefit, or at our request. I guess the good news is that now that they've laid out an estimate of the cost (assuming it's on record somewhere) and used it as the basis for setting the price, it'll be harder for them to justify any significant increase over that. As far as fighting it, as much as I hate to bend over on any issue, I suspect we can only shoot ourselves in the back by drawing attention to the subject. Judging from the visitors I talk to in the snake room of the refuge I work at, 95% had no idea until I mentioned it that there was such thing as a venomous reptile permit (they seem to assume it's illegal to keep them, period) and a good 75% would obviously be happier if noone had them. And this is from a population of people interested enough in animals to drive to our refuge in the middle of nowhere... Posted by LarryDFishel on June 16, 2003 Complaints? Has anyone written to find out why the fee was raised? Has anyone in Florida taken the steps to get organized to resist the increase? I can tell you right now, Florida venomous keepers will have to become unified to resist this increase. It won't work any other way. They won't give a hoot about anything that anyone outside the State of Florida has to say. Been here, done this. This is strictly a Florida issue. ~CH Posted by Chris_Harper on June 15, 2003 Boy is that right or what? Good point in deed. A couple hundred bucks isn't to bad, but that's not the point. Local Governments have to get a piece of the action, wheather it be from sales or hobbies and that is the opposite of what this country was based on. The game and fish dept has a budget for the services they provide, so that is not the reason. The reason is in the third sentence of my opinion. A couple hundred bucks isn't much, but on top of everything else we pay for in life, it is a lot. Glad to be home Jeff Q Posted by cottonmouth on June 15, 2003 Just because it's worse elsewhere doesn't make it ok It may cost $50,000 a year to keep elsewhere, would that make $25,000 right? The point is that the system worked as well as can be expected before. There is no reason for the change. At least no reason that has been stated. Just because someone else has it worse doesn't make a change for the "not as bad as someone else has" ok. This is what I see repeated over and over. "Oh yeah? don't complain it costs $xxxx to keep where I am!", yeah well it used to cost me $5, then it jumped 20X with no warning or justification. If we just accept it now, what if they decide on another 20X increase since we just accepted the last one? is $2000 a year too much? Posted by venom on June 15, 2003 Disappointed As a member I expected the SHHS to stand up for the rights of all venomous keepers. I think our president should back the Florida keepers. My wife and I both have venomous licenses so that raises our fee from $10 to $200. I think a fee of $25 whould be much more resonable, after all licenses to keep big cats, crocs, and primates are only $25. I will pay the fee if I have to. I must agree it is beter than some states. I still support the SHHS fully but would like to see more done to protect the rights of venomous keepers in all states. Posted by adamanteus on June 14, 2003 When we accept taxes and fees on on freedom, than we slowley chip away at freedom. Remember the Boston Tea Party. England was slowley taxing every thing they could until we said no!!! Posted by chewwy on June 13, 2003 Notice when things change, they never stop either!!! People please be careful.. Posted by RainforestsExoticsCoxnet on June 12, 2003 I would pay it, will pay it. I live in S. Ga and the law makers here need to look at the revenue Fla is getting from this and wise up. Ga. needs to inact a similar program and make everyone happy. Drop the amount of required insurance and lower the annuals Posted by snakecharmer on June 12, 2003 venomous permit If any of you are dissapointed at the permit price increase can I tell you that as a UK resident it is currently set at approximately £1000 ($1600) per annum this does not including vet inspection fees or the third party liability insurrance required and even then it would probably be revoked at the end of the term while the local authority consider whether or not to renew the license-which is long enough to have your animals confiscated and disapear for ever- if anybody is willing to adopt me I,m 37 and I can wipe my own but! Posted by VIPERABERUS on June 12, 2003 Permit fees I live in good ol' South GA, and the last time I checked, the Gen. Assembly didn't care a bit about venomous reptiles. Nevertheless, If Fla. wants to raise the fees, than the state should consider the fee as a premium for a special "snakebite insurance." At least the people paying the fees will see that the money paid is going for something useful, and if you get envenomated, then the "snakebite insurance" will cover at least a poriton of the hospital bill, instead if your regular coverage. Otherwise, without some sort of educational or other practical reason for the increase, then the increase is nothing more than "Big Government" feeling your pockets for a raise!! Posted by curiousherp on June 11, 2003 Keep the Program working???? Hello all, I live in FL and I am the only person in my county that has a venomous reptiles license. I have had my license since Dec of 99 (after 4 mos of phone calls and paper work grrrrr) having been a transplant from PA. In that time, I have had only TWO inspections, my initial inspection before my license was approved and an inspection when I moved to my current house. I am not sure if maybe the wardens in my county are lazy and just pencil whip these supposed spot inspections but I see no reason to raise the price. Believe me no money other than the cost of printing a new one each year has gone into my having a current , valid license.Perhaps a better idea is to make it more expensive for a initial issue then maybe a lower yearly renewal fee. Of course I'll pay it and suck it up but I will in no way be happy about it. Maybe if I even new what the game people looked like I might not have a problem but I really don't think they need to raise the annual cost. Oh and for who ever made the comment about tax payers footing our bill, two things, a) We have no state income tax so that theorey is out the window and b)The taxes we do pay(sales,property,vehicle taxes etc.) WE do pay so I am footing the bill also.We are not some herpetological welfare system that puts nothing into the stat revenue.(Nothing against welfare I was poor as hell growing up and my working family was on welfare or gov assistance of some sort for most of my minor years). So yes I would pay it but it is way B.S. Posted by MrToons on June 9, 2003 In Virginia, we don't have to pay a dime, at least for now. Why in a country that is free should we give our local governments money for every pleasure, hobby, interest. We pay for cable and things like that, because they are provided, not from the earth. Keep on agreeing with the Taxes and Hikes and they will never stop, but increase. Posted by cottonmouth on June 8, 2003 Well I also am not a Florida resident but if it were required in my state I would pay it. I would also probably complain about it but would pay it. I do have a question about the structure of your permit system. Does the state permit override any local ordinances? In my state (Wisconsin) no permit is required to keep venomous, but local ordinances can completely ban any and all snakes and many do. In most cases those bans are not enforced but can be when the local officials want to or feel they need to. Posted by vettesherps on June 8, 2003 Not a Florida resident I am not a Florida resident. I live just across the state line in Georgia. I have already submitted for my permit at the $5 rate. I will soon be leaving the area for a few years. When I come back, if the permit is still available at $100 a year, I will have one. That is still much more feasible than the current Georgia system. It is a relatively cheap price for such a serious endeavor. Maybe the price increase will weed out the less serious thrill seekers. Maybe it won't. Maybe it will be a deciding factor for people to choose to keep illegally. We all know that there are certainly people doing that already. But Gee Whiz, $8.34 a month to keep venomous snakes? I pay more than that to get cable or be on the internet! I think that the price increase, although sudden and comparatively steep, is still reasonable and I intend to pay it. Karl H. Betz Buzztail1@hotmail.com Posted by Buzztail1 on June 8, 2003 Seems simple to me Let's say there are 700 licensed keepers in Florida. (last I heard, it was less than that) 700 x $5 is $3500, right? That's not even enough to pay the salary of one person to go around and do spot checks on the licensed keepers, or for anyone else to maintain the database and mail out permits. The most likely scenario was that someone sat down and figured out that the licensed venomous keepers weren't paying their way within the state, and were therefore allowing the taxpayers to foot the bill of keeping them licensed. What they probably did was determine the cost of maintaining the licensing system, and divide that by the average annual number of licenses. I can see the logic in that, since that's the same way that the SHHS works. Maybe you guys in Florida should just be glad that they are only figuring this out now. Think of how many years you only had to pay 5 bucks!!! In Georgia, it would cost me $4500 a year to keep a single eyelash viper. CH Posted by Chris_Harper on June 8, 2003 raising the fee I just dont understand why to suddenly do a 20 fold increase in the fee. It's been $5 since I got my first permit 10 years ago. There are not enough permits to make any serious revenue. All it does is punish those of us who follow the law and provide more of an incentive to keep illegally. A large reason I think our permit system has been effective is that money wasn't an issue, responsibility and qualification was. It will cost me $225 a year to do educational snake and gator programs (for FREE).$200 for venomous ($100 for the permit, $100 for the $1000 bond required to display) and $25 for my croc permit (to include gators in the talks). I would like to know what th justification was. To quote a city official from an article in the paper last week "If you raise fees, you better have a damn good reason for it". Posted by venom on June 8, 2003 For everyone This survey is for everyone, not just Florida residents. The question is, "Would you pay the $100?". Well, would you? webmaster Posted by Chris_Harper on June 8, 2003 Yep Here we go, this ones gonna be a hot topic for sure...we have two Fl Licenses in our househole so now it will be 200 a year for us instead of 10. Am I complaining? HECK NO!!! Its sure beats an all out ban. I'd gladly pay 1000 a year for my License, not all that thrilled about paying more but I do believe that the money is needed for the program to continue and yes the system has flaws, for example it does not take into account individuals who only keep native species or do educational programs..it does need some changes but all in all its a good system(this is our ninth year of maintianing our Fl license, without any problems, in fact its really helped us out a few times to have it...twice people(once a co-worker and once the clerk at the airport pick-up counter) called the police when they heard we maintian venomous reptiles, the permit really put the situation to rest both times) I like having it, we busted our butts to earn them and I dont mind paying the fees as long as its handled responsibly. Just ask the former hot keepers in the states that have a ban what they would be willing to pay to keep hots again. I'm sure many would gladly pay a measly 100 bucks to get back into it...AND most of hot keppers spend 100's or 1000's on thier "collections" but are complaining about paying the new fee...I bet they spend more than 100 on a single animal. Personally I dont care how high they raise the fee...I love the hobby and understand that it takes special considerations to be a hot keeper... Next you'll get the BLAH....BLAH...BLAH about too much gov. in our lives...LOL...sorry thats not even an argument.... Posted by sierra on June 7, 2003 I wouldn't even consider the fee, just another way to get hard earned money from hard working Americans. before long they will have us paying taxes and fees on air. Posted by chewwy on June 7, 2003 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!