VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Thanks for voting! Your vote has been included in the results below. Out of all venomous keepers that you have met in person, what percentage would you estimate was knowledgable and skilled sufficiently to justify their keeping of venomous reptiles?   Posted: Feb 16, 2004   (589 votes, 23 comments) by Nightflight99
Survey Results
90% or more, almost all of them. 21% (123) 75%, most of them. 22% (128) 50%, half of them. 17% (99) 25% only a few of them. 12% (70) 10%, very few of them. 12% (68) I don't know enough about the topic to make that judgement. 17% (101)
Survey Comments
good question There are very few real competent hot herpers. most states dont even require a license and even in florida most can barely pronounce the names of the snake. They get some one to verify the bogus experiance. Then they are good to go and get a black mamba or worse. 25 snakes unlocked in a trailer with five young kids is a good example of a accident waiting to happen. and untrained hot dealers should be more carefull about hustling snakes to intrained people. It seems a new joker is selling hots every day a lot are scammers and just as stupid as the untrained keepers. don't get me wrong some are very serious and competent but thats a small number and thats one reason hots will be banned in the next five years only zoos will have them. We all have a little blame to carry we should police ourselves so that it won't be done for us bit its to late the ball is already rolling. have fun while you can the ride is almost over. bud Posted by Bud on April 23, 2004 Hello fellow snakelovers, I've commented on some of the speakout topics,so I'll try here too. I'm very impressed with the knowledge many of you express here. I suppose that it will all come down to how mature we are and selfless we are willing to be. I mean when it comes to placing restrictions on ourselves. I guess what I'm trying to say (finally) is the responsible handlers are not the problem, but the insecure people who need the snakes to show their "toughness" . All in all I'm so impressed with the knowledge I see on this site. 40 years ago all we knew was keep the cage dry, NO change in air temperature,no mention of food, except field studies, and we know what that means. You folks have surpassed me in so many ways. So keep learning and passing your information on. Thanks for listening. PS I have 4 timbers and 1 e. diamondback Posted by oldsnakeman on March 16, 2004 Very few evidence by the last poll that showed 113 think zoos should take care of them when they are bitten by their pet. Truly good keepers would have their own antisera or have a regional antisera bank so as not to risk others. Posted by Kristen on March 9, 2004 Arogance and ignorance kills I live in Romania and herpetoculture is as popular here as wrestling alligators is in Rusia. I realy don`t mean to sound cocky but despite of my age(17) I am the best reptile keeper I met.I`ve been keeping reptiles, including venomous snakes for 4 years and studying the native herpetofauna. I`ve met herpetologists here who have no ideea of the modern snake catching or handling techniques. Most of them use gloves or handle venomous with sticks(wooden sticks).They keep them in covered aquariums with no heating or lighting. I know exotic reptile keepers which almost never handle their snakes.That would normaly be a good thing but many of their snakes need veterenaty asistance. They have a cobra who hasen`t shed the scale that caovers the eye for 2 years now and they haven`t bothered to take it all the lairs of skin of the snakes eye. A friend of mine of a close age, also a reptile enthusiast was bitten by a european adder because he was touching it`s head with his finger. How stupid can a man be? :) Another good friend and former high-school college of mine was bitten by a Meadow Adder(Vipera ursinii) when he was force-feeding it using his fingers instead of a forceps, cause he couldn`t find it then. Luckely for him it wasn`t a serious bite and now he is studying bilology in college, hoping to become a herpetologist. Personaly, I never handle any of my reptiles except for when I realy have to. Of course my native snakes aren`t very hard to handle so you might say that I don`t need extraordinary handeleing skills. Except for native species I have handled large Cottenmouths, Copperheads, Puff Adders and Russel`s Vipers on rare ocasions and I felt prety comfortable with them. Please excuse my english. I am looking forward to your criticism. Take care... Posted by Snake17 on March 6, 2004 Husbandry knowledge is the first thing a snake keeper needs to learn. Handling venomous snakes is one of the easiest parts of herpetology/hepetoculture. Whether it is daily maintenance, or vet. procedures. If someone knows how to provide the proper husbandry for the given animal. then 99% of all illnesses and injuries would be avoidable. Almost all health issues regarding reptiles is husbandry/capture/storing related... It sucks that people don't know how to care for a snake, then add venomous to the equation, that bites! So in answer to the question asked, I don't feel that 90% of the people keeping snakes even know how to keep them, let alone where they are from and the specifics that go along with it. Then they add the venomous part, it's a sad world we live in.... Posted by stopgetinpopped on March 1, 2004 Husbandry issues I suspect that when most people think about whether or not someone is skilled enough to keep venomous snakes, they are thinking about whether the person can keep from getting bitten and keep the snakes from escaping. I agree that these things are important, but husbandry skills are equally important. I will not give or sell any snakes to someone who has not demonstrated the ability and the willingness to give that snake immediate hands-on veterinary care should it become ill or injured. Most people (and some institutions) do not provide veterinary care for their venomous reptiles, so I voted for 10%. If the criteria were strictly for human benefit (no bites, no escapes) the percentage would be a lot higher in my estimation. Posted by MSTT on February 29, 2004 Lack of brain+lack knowledge=lack of life Crikey!, where do I start? This aint gonna be a long rant ("thank gawd" says' all of you who are familiar with my comments!) Unfortunately, I can't even class the folk I've encountered as venomous "keepers", as even that term should be used VERY loosely. Almost all were lacking in knowledge either for the habitat, species, requirements, and general husbandry. I can therefore state than NONE had any justification keeping any. Most of the Venomous I've encountered have been in drug related incidents i.e. reptiles being kept as a "silent security measure", smuggled, or others just being held without the appropriate paperwork. Ok, there are those who already keep snakes and other reptiles in their property, perfectly housed and cared for. But some of those have overstepped the mark and obtained full blown exotic species requiring a UK,DWA (Dangerous Wild Animal Licence) To me, those folk who illegaly deal/keep/whatever with venomous herps should all be lined up against a wall and shot. But, as for the real first class Legal keepers/dealers out there, my hat comes of to you. Especially Mark from Ameyzoo.co.uk. His sound advice and expertise has helped and guided me through many a difficult time. There ought to be more like him in the UK - pity. Regards to all responsible keepers, and "aim-click-bang!" to all those irresponsible! Posted by BanffshireBushman on February 27, 2004 Let me restate To serpentexotics, i never critisized your pic, the tube is easily seen. To amablis, i was wondering why i didn't see a tube, there isn't one! Didn't read you post carefully enough. It's good that you don't use gloves anymore, and have stuck to more practical methods. I'm in no way being patronizing, you have more experience than I do by far, but there are people who have been doing this for many years who are still idiots. I apologize again for my comments, they really weren't meant to offend, just question your technique. I guess I got my answer, ;) Posted by psilocybe on February 25, 2004 Apology My apology to you and SerpentXotics Amablis...as for regards to my name, it has nothing to do with my handling abilities. I am no expert, but i'm not a newbie either. My past experience with any substance does not relate to my current interests and pursuits. I assure you, i never work with any venomous animal under the influence of anything, legal or not! This is by no means an admission to any substance use. I'm simply stating that I do take responsiblity for my welfare and those around me, and even if I'm just a bit tired, I'll put off any hands on work needed. So please don't worry. I couldn't see the tube in the pic, apparently Taipan had the same problem, and we were both too quick to jump, should have asked first. I admit my fault on that one.. :) Posted by psilocybe on February 25, 2004 venomous reptiles The few i have know don't know how to keep the reptiles they have alive but even if they know how to they don't do what should be done to keep the rep's alive. Posted by snakesallover on February 23, 2004 Quite frankly Most of the people I have encountered in this pursuit have scared the cr@p out of me with their handling techniques. Even some of the folks with much more experience than I have. I just do not understand why some people insist that it is okay for them to take foolhardy handling chances that are not necessary. Watching someone reach, barehanded, into a hot cobra's (as opposed to venomoid which I don't particularly care for either) cage to pull it out before hooking it is all the invitation I need to head out the door. Just my opinions, Karl Posted by Buzztail1 on February 21, 2004 My deepest apoligies go out in that case Serpentexotics. I shouldnt have gone off without haveing taken a better look at the pic. Please forgive but all is well if you dont. I would be pretty pissed off too. My bad man. I was in a mood and it was before my first cup of coffee. Ok, now that I feel like a complete dumbarse let me go hide in a hole somwhere. My bad yet again. Jeremy Posted by TAIPAN78 on February 18, 2004 for the record the eastern was tubed for everyone who needs glasses the EDB in my profile PIC is being tubed for probing take a close look I am not stupid I have been keeping hot's for years and have never even had a close call and never been bit I use common methods to handle my animals and safe methods at that I would like to thank those who looked carefully and came to my defense and for those who trashed me you need to call 1(800)two-pair and get your eyes checked thank you Joe Lesh Posted by SerpenXotics on February 18, 2004 Defense In my own defence and SerpenXotics, he has an adamanteus tubed if you look closely at the picture... very safe. Psilocybe...hmmm someone who has a halucinagen as a web name doesn't exactly have a lot of pull with me on safety issues:-) The gloves I had on (which were stolen from me and HARD to find), they are a rare find indeed, they are smelting gloves and are WAY secure with a large rattler bite. Unlike the gloves on the market today and the picture is way old. I haven't used gloves since they were stolen (8 yrs ago) as the rest can be punctured (I tested these gloves before use with a staple gun,7 layers of leather, no puncture). I now only use hooks. AND (knock on wood) I haven't been bit in 10 years of breeding only venomous. So I would appreciate casting your comments in another direction. The person I mentioned still does business AND that is scary. David Furphy AKN Venom & Exotics Posted by Amabilis on February 18, 2004 First off, anyone whos profile picture shows them free handleing an adamanteus need not respond!!! If its a venomoid, just as much reason not to respond!!(for you no longer have a venomous animal!!) How the hell can you rant about the bad practices of other hot keepers when you publicly display such foolishness SerpenXotics? Secondly, to say most dealers screen their potential costumers is BS!!! I would not say even 30 percent of them do. I attend Hamburg atleast twice a year, along with the Litz, Columbia and Daytona shows and I never see any DEALER ask anything other then "were is the money?"(yes, I have been looking!!!). Breeders on the other hand usualy do screen their sales a good majority of the time and take great pride in the offspring they have produced. Somtimes they can be down right picky in whom they reserve the right to sell too. Dealers simply care about getting rid of everything and makeing a buck. (which I wouldnt say is a bad thing since most rely on their dealing for income. However the facts still remain) As for the question at hand, none of my freinds in this hobby practice unsafe handleing techniques for they would not be freinds if they did! I personaly do not want anything to do with anyone ignorant around these dangerous animals. I have been very lucky in meeting mostly (if not only)very responsible adults in thsi hobby and none I can think of has ever done anything stupid around me. However I have not visited more then a handfull of keepers so I guess luck has been with me. I do not take to ignorance well. Bottom line is that the hobby has gone way down hill since I entered it some 6 yrs ago and I hope and pray things turn around before big brother shoves his foot up our ____!!!! Later, Jeremy Posted by TAIPAN78 on February 18, 2004 Question to Amablis Nice story on your idiot aquantance and his hots...i took a look at your profile however, and it appears you are holding a rattler with your hands (okay, you have gloves, but that's not gonna guarentee anything)...are you sure you should be one critisizing others? I mean no offense, but it does not appear that you have that snake restrained in any headgrip i've ever seen...maybe you're an innovator... Posted by psilocybe on February 17, 2004 common sense I feel it takes a certain degree of patiance to deal in venomous snakes and I find that it is up to the dealers and private breeders who show and distribute these snakes to make a reasonable assumtion wheather or not someone is capable of the common sense needed to handle and keep these animals in healthy conditions without becomeing a danger to themselves and others around them I find that most dealers do take the time to ask some questions before the sale of dangerous animals to anyone I personally have found that most venomous keepers I have found myself in assotiation with which is a limited few are very well educated and have a true passion for these animals sometimes un fortunatly people who are very undeserving of venomous do get there hands on them but those people will learn a lesson one way or another in conclusion I hope all of us responsible people can keep our privlages that we have worked so hard to earn Posted by SerpenXotics on February 17, 2004 losers I actually watched this putz feed a hot C.Ruber by hand in a large tank with 10 or 12 other C.Ruber in it. He held a mole (which he hit with his truck) by the tail and teased a 4 or 5 foot Ruber too feed. I also watched the same yutz pet a hot Mojave (Scutulatus)WHILE it was in a tank with 5 or 6 more Mojaves and a couple of copper heads. I refuse to even speak with this danger to himself and others. He has been bit a few times (the number changes every time). You have never seen such a wilful disregard for others as well as himself. I would have to say that he asked for every bite he recieved. He is the King of Unsafe Handling. Most I have met aren't much better, though, safer. David Furphy AKN Venom & Exotics Posted by Amabilis on February 17, 2004 I feel that many of these surveys help caste a negative light on the venomous herpetoculture community. They provide outsiders with alot of negative statistics. Posted by Crotalus75 on February 17, 2004 I think elapidking summed it up perfectly Posted by xvenomx on February 17, 2004 I LIKE TO BE POSSITIVE THESE DAYS. THE PEOPLE I HAVE CONTACT WITH IN THE SAME INTEREST ARE VERY KNOWLEGABLE. Posted by cottonmouth on February 16, 2004 I once met this sod, that said that he had a "copperhead rattlesnake"! That says it all! And to proove his stupidity, he got bit by a full adult rinkhals not even a week ago!!!!! He has PLENTY of dangerous snakes - good luck to him! Posted by BREEZER on February 16, 2004 out of the few i have seen most do not have the knowledge to keep any reptile , including venomous Posted by elapidking81 on February 16, 2004 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!