VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Thanks for voting! Your vote has been included in the results below. Which controversial practice do you personally frown upon moreso than any other?   Posted: Mar 16, 2004   (859 votes, 20 comments) by Nightflight99
Survey Results
Freehandling venomous reptiles 21% (181) Venomoids 42% (360) Illegally keeping venomous reptiles 20% (169) Self-innoculation 5% (41) Other (please specify) 3% (22) I don't know enough about this topic 4% (35) I don't frown on any of the above 6% (51)
Survey Comments
all subjects I chose this topic because as far as I'm concerned every man has his own brain and even though some people do frown on these topics I feel its every mans "own" choice to make. I am certainly not saying I condone any of this but, to put it frank do you other hot keepers really think that you can stop every idiot out there from making wiser keepers look bad?! Well even if we do that dosn't stop the people who fear this hobby and who are obviously ignorant about snakes from doing the same thing we are doing right now! I say if you want to get bit, get bit, if you want to pay a fine, break the law, if you don't want to get bit, don't keep hot snakes! Posted by celticrattler on August 18, 2004 Rattlesnake Round-Ups I detest this form of celebrated animal cruelty. If dogs, cats, etc.. were rounded up like the snakes were, the media and general public would be outraged! It isn't commonly understood by the masses that these "snake-handlers" are out there in the field weeks on end BEFORE the actual event takes place! Disrupting the natural ecology of a certain area is NOT socially acceptible! Education is paramount! Posted by Frawgg on April 13, 2004 illeagal snakes Maybe so many people wouldn't keep illeagal venomous snakes if the laws were improved.I know, I had many illeagal snakes, and I got in a load of trouble for it. In my state it is leagal to keep only native venomous,and there is no such permit to keep non native, period,I have been keeping venomous snakes for over 12 years, and I consider myself safe and well versed in the care of such animals. But the law doesn't see it that way. I think we as responsible venomous keepers need to get the laws revised, and institute some kind of standardized test to assertain the skill level of venomous,or potential venomous keepers.I don't think we should condemn the people who have a love for this hobby, but are circumstantially kept from persuing it.(by the way, most of you should check your spelling, if half of your words are misspelled,it makes all of us look bad) Posted by xvenomx on April 11, 2004 it was a hard one well in my lil opinion i chose the free handling but i do have to add it was hard depending on the snake and all, i do not agree with venomoids either , as in case the rattler they use there venom to help break down there food so if you take that away how do they eat well i meen they can but it is not heathy for them i have kept venomous snakes for 10 years now and seen alot of things but i would never free hanlde any of my animals let alone take the only thing that makes them difrent and so special to the world and us ,(the care takers) of these wonderful animals i meen if you take there venomom away because you are scard of being bitten by them then by a ciper boa not a hot Posted by MichiganHerpatiles on March 31, 2004 Venomoids I don't think that a venomous snake should have to undergo surgery just so we can feel more safe in keeping it. First of all, it didn't ask to be kept. Secondly, it's not right to make the animal suffer. I bet if snakes could talk to us (or we could understand them) not one of them would agree to have a ductectomy for our benefit. I absolutely hate to see venomoids!! Posted by oOCrotalusOo on March 30, 2004 generalizations first off id like to say that not all illegal snake keepers are idiots. most everyone at some time has kept a snake without a permit! i my self have had venomous snakes with out any permit,but i am also very careful with them ie...locked cages,not free handling them,or show boating them..i also caught a 35 inch coral snake and relocated it to a serpentarium to be put on the milking line...i used a snake hook and pinned him against my wifes voice. out of everything on this survey the most stupid thing you can do is free handle venomous snakes... old sayings ring true.... when you lose respect for the animal thats when you get bit..i dont care how good you are you will get bit,once that happens unless youre an idiot hopefully you will have learned your lesson...it happens to the best while using tools for safety!!! imagine the news with someone who has permits and should know better get bit for bieng to comfortable with their snakes!!! Posted by allthatslithers on March 30, 2004 Free handling Keeping venomous snakes illegally is not smart. But what is worse is an escape or bite to a private keeper legal or not, it's just BAD PRESS. Stupid keepers are my least favorite(free handling included). Because a legal keeper who free handles, has escapes , takes their animals out in public to show boat or gets bit is just as bad for the hobby as an illegal keeper doing the same. We look bad either way. Illegal keepers could be the "ideal responsible keeper" except for their location. For example I know professional herpers(zoo) who have a locked snake room that is sealed tight, with every cage labled and locked and anti-venom on hand. Yet they live in a city that won't allow them to be legal. But in my eyes they are more responsible than anyone who lives out in the woods and keeps cobras in rubbermaids with books to weigh the lid down. I HATE STUPID KEEPERS(FREE HANDLERS INCLUDED) BECAUSE THEY CAUSED THE AREAS THAT ARE ILLEGAL TO BE THAT WAY AND MAKE GOOD KEEPERS LOOK LIKE IDOITS!!!!! Posted by TCH_Zoological on March 25, 2004 I already have! I am credited with catching the record length broad-banded copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix laticinctus) 38&1/4in. And it was one of the best experiences I've had. You best believe I kept that beast. whats even more is in the same spot I lost an even bigger one down a animal borrow! Its so rare to see a creature going through such incredible destruction to reach a monster length like that! Posted by squamatajoe on March 22, 2004 Other I picked "other" because there wasn't an "All of the above" category. As I see it, it breaks down like this: 1) Illegally keeping venomous snakes is by definition illegal and therefore not something to be approved of or sanctioned. 2) Self-innoculation and Free-handling are both issues which involve the personal safety of the individual involved. While I don't involve myself with either of these activities, I also have never understood why suicide would be against the law. However, neither free-handling nor self-innoculation appear to be against the law. 3) Venomoiding snakes is a volatile subject with adherents to both sides. I have given live venomous snake lectures for the past 28 years and can assure you that venomoids are not "necessary" for education. Unfortunately, venomoiding is not against the law either so it falls to number three. Just my personal views, Karl H. Betz Posted by Buzztail1 on March 21, 2004 contraversial practices roundups in the name of safety,suck.enough said! Posted by oleblazer1 on March 20, 2004 general comment All life is valuable, pet reptiles are basicaly prisoners of our selfish needs. Scientific pets/subjects are beneficial in an education sence. I have an urge to own a snake but will satisfy my urge by visiting my local reptile zoo and leave the demanding care of our valuable animal neighbours to the professionals. Posted by coulebra on March 20, 2004 Self-innoculation Most of the idiots out there, wont mention any screen names but you know who you are, have NO idea what they are doing when it comes to self innoculation. A lot of them just look for cheap deals on venom from people who milk thier snakes into glasses with saran wrap over them and let them air dry. What these IDIOTS don't know is that air drying of venoms alters the proteins, making them completely different than the actual venom found in the glands of the snake. If you stop innoculation for even a short period of time, there is a great chance you will develop hyper-sensitivity to those venoms. And when you decide to start up again you go into anaphilactic shock and die. Amatuers should not be aloud to take part in this practice, and we as responsible keepers should frown on it. After 3 snake bites i have developed anaphylaxis, AND I VALUE IT, it inspires me not to get bit. If you don't work around venomous snakes ALL day, and if it is not your chosen career path, why is your dumb ass injecting toxins into your body. Toxinologists just laugh at you, you have NO idea what you are doing to your body. You would be better off shooting heroin. Do us a favor and don't call your self a "responsible keeper". Posted by vavenomguy on March 19, 2004 Free handling/Escapes Freehandling is most often done for ego. Showing off just leads to more laws. Look at the case of the guys in Florida that show off. One was bitten on the stomach then sold the footage to TV and then let spitting cobras expel venom on to the hosts of MTV's WildBoys.This is not the image we as keepers need to be giving the public. The other was just on Animal Planet catching escaped cobras(I can see law makers at home watching this saying there needs to be a law) and giving out alot of bad information. Whether or not these were real escapes letting the media play them up is going to hurt the average keeper who is trying to do things right. We have been called on many times to get escaped animals as has just about anyone that is in this business. When possible we try to not have media involved in non postive events but if they are we try to downplay things as much as possible. Ecsapes are criminal and risk others lives so it is important to follow all laws and have good caging. Posted by JRHarrison on March 18, 2004 To Sal Sal, I think your vote should be the same as mine and not keeping illegally. An escaped snake that was legal to keep would get the same results as an escaped illegal snake. In fact probably more so, cause they can’t ban the illegal snakes. =) Two cases in point, TN & AL. Both saw drastic changes in the law stemming from escapes. Posted by sceniccityreptiles on March 18, 2004 Self injection is dangerous and when non doctors are involved can only be looked at as voodoo science. The real science behind self injection shows the risks out weigh the benefits. When the media get a hold of these self injectors it makes all keepers look bad to the public. Posted by JRHarrison on March 18, 2004 free handling stupid just stupid Posted by elapidking81 on March 18, 2004 Illegal I don't like it when people keep snakes they shouldn't because if they escape the press jumps all over it and then the state/community usually passes more laws banning more herps. It only messes things up for the people keeping correctly and legally. Posted by Sal on March 17, 2004 saftey Unfortuneatly the future of being a hot keeper lies in the hands of people who know nothing at all about keeping hots. I belive it is our responsibility to show that it can be and is safe. In my opinion free handling is careless and always will eventially lead to getting bit, which leads to bad publicity,which is bad for all hot keepers.If you free handle, its not a question of will you get bit, but rather when will you get bit.I also agree with the previous post about improper caging. I too have seen some pretty scary setups. Marty Posted by Marty1st on March 17, 2004 other Well, I voted other. I have a very liberal stance on voids and free handling as most of you know. I firmly believe hot keepers have every right to risk their own lives in the pursuit of happiness, but feel just as strongly that we do not have the right to risk other people’s lives. What I frown on more then anything is keeping hots in inadequate cages. I have been in several rooms where the snakes are in 10 gal fish tanks with phone books on the lids being the only security. Posted by sceniccityreptiles on March 17, 2004 Venomoids I think that keeping snakes is done for the love and respect of the animal. To voluntarily mutilate a venomous snake for uor safety is completly inhumane in my opinion and should be banned by animal rights laws. Posted by Snake17 on March 17, 2004 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!