VenomousReptiles.org Survey

Survey Question	Current Survey Question Should hobbyists ever free handle venomous reptiles with their hands? Recent Surveys Most venomous/toxic Naja species in the world? I have read that the Philippine cobra is the most venomous (mice, 0.2 mg/kg SC with the lowest reported value being 0.14 mg/kg SC) (Brown, 1973). I have recently, come across something in the Indian Journal of Experimental Biology (Vol. 30, (issue 12), pages: 1158-1162, 1992) which stated that the LD50 for Naja oxiana was the most toxic/venomous (mice, 0.18 mg/kg SC and lowest reported value was 0.10 mg/kg). Along with that, the mortality rate for untreated Naja oxiana bites are the highest among all Naja species (70-80%). N.oxiana also produced the lowest known lethal dose (LCLo) of 0.005 mg/kg, the lowest among all cobra species ever recorded, derived from an individual case of poisoning by intracerebroventricular injection. Following N. oxiana and N. philippinensis are N. melanoleuca at 0.225 mg/kg SC and then N. samarensis at 0.23 mg/kg. The water cobras (N. annulata and N. christyi also have very toxic venoms, but no SC values are listed. Only intraperitoneal (IP) values of 0.143 mg/kg for N. annulata and 0.12 mg/kg for N. christyi. IP values tend to be generally lower (more toxic than subcutaneous values, so it would be unfair to compare their IP results to the subcutaneous (SC) results of other Naja species. Then I have heard that (without solid evidence) that Naja nivea is the most venomous, although their murine SC LD50 range anywhere from 0.4 mg/kg (Toxicon, Vol. 5, issue 1, page 47, 1967) to 0.72 mg/kg (Australian venoms and toxins Databse). So which is the most venomous? To me it seems obvious that it is the Caspian or Oxus cobra (Naja oxiana), followed by the Philippine cobra (Naja philippinensis). What do you think or know? I've noticed that the Australian venom and toxin Database seems to have higher LD50 values for all snakes across the board. For example, for the black mamba IP value of 0.01 mg/kg is listed (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004101018890219X) and Ernst and Zug et al 1996, list a SC value of 0.05 mg/kg for the black mamba. While the Australian venom and toxin Database listed much less toxic LD50's. So there seems to be a lot of variation. 2014-01-23 What's Your Favorite Venomous Snake? 2013-11-13 Deadliest Bite? 2013-09-16 IF the science of self-immunization for a snake envenomation was proven/perfected what is the least benefit(percentage) you would accept before practicing it on yourself? 2013-06-06 how did you learn to keep venomous reptiles? 2013-03-02 View All Survey Questions Have a good idea for a VenomousReptiles.org Survey question? Enter your idea!
Thanks for voting! Your vote has been included in the results below. There is an old saying that claims, "Its not if you get bit, its when you get bit". As a keeper of venomous reptiles, do you agree with this? Why or why not?   Posted: Apr 17, 2004   (617 votes, 32 comments) by Nightflight99
Survey Results
Yes 40% (249) No 36% (225) It depends (please elaborate) 7% (44) I have never kept venomous reptiles. 16% (99)
Survey Comments
it depends on the person i am 18 years old and i was boarn and raised in florida i cought my first venomous snake at age 6 in kindergarden because it was on the playground i knew what it was and how dangerous it is and after that i started studing all reptiles and hots i have cought many north american pit vipers and was never bitten i bought my first venomous snake in november of 2003 she was a west african bush viper "also known as the green bush viper" i had her for about 3 months and i free handeled her a couple of times but i knew what could happen on febuary 9 2004 i was going to bed it was about 1:30am et and i check all my reptiles and i look in my bush vipers encloser and she looked dead so i opened the cage and moved the log she was sleeping on and i had the smell of puppies on my hands "stupid me i didnt wash them" and the bush viper turned her head and nailed my left indes finger holding on for 5-10 seconds when she let go i closed the encloser and locked it and called 911 while i was putting on a pressure bandage my finger started to turn black and blue right away by the time the ambulance and chopper arrived at my house my hand all the way up to my elbow was twice its size from the swelling when i got to the hospital the swelling was all the way up my entire arm and into my chest. the west african bush viper "atheris chloroechis" dosent have antivenom but the philadelphia zoo had a south african polyovalent antivenom while the first 15 viles of anti venom were be driven up to the hospital i was dying i couldent breath my heart rate was dropping rapidly so the doctors gave me crofab "rattlesnake antivenom" which i told them it would only make me worse well thay Gave it to me and i got real bad my whole body was shaking well the antivenom from the zoo arrived about 4 hours after the bite and it worked so now im in the medical journal because thay gambled with my life to find someting that worked and i owe my life to the doctors and brent spencer of the philadelphia zoo well im almost recovered its been a little under 7 months after the bute i still have necrosis and my finger is messed up but i found a good doctor to fix it. i still work with venomous snakes but i will never make that mistake again like i always say respect the snake and dont get balls thank you for reading this if anyone would like to e-mail me it is (gutterboy42002@aol.com) thanks, vinny Posted by vld on September 7, 2004 I voted yes, but..... I voted yes, simply because I have been bit three times in the last 22 years. But I do not really believe it to be true. I have been keeping reptiles since the age 3. I caught my first S. Copperhead at age 8 and even then had enough brains to figure out that this animal could put a hurting on me. Keeping reptiles has been a life long hobby for me, I am 30 years old now. I do feel that a person can keep venomous reptiles for an entire life time and never be bit. Here's my reason for thinking that way. I have been bit by a S. Copperhead, a Canebrake rattlesnake and recently a mottled rock rattlesnake. My first bite was the copper head. I got bit because of a natural reaction. I was sending out 10 baby coppers and was getting them ready to go. I was in my herp room which has concrete floors and the last copper to be bagged was a squirmy one. It decided to slide off the hook and I just reacted, I caught it in mid air by the tail and in an instant it came up it's own body and tagged me on the end of the finger, OUCH!! My second bite was a GA locality bright pink Canebrake. For those of you who don't know, they have a lot of neurotoxic venom. This was a snake that I considered "tame" (dumb dumb dumb). But I had kept her for about a year and she had never even tried to bite anything. She didn't even strike at her food, I had to kill the mice and lay them in there with her. She was one of 2 snakes that I "quote unquote", trusted at the time. And quite often, I did put my hand in the cage to grab her water bowl to clean it or whatever. Stupid, I know, but one morning, it was what I call a "full day" which was the day I cleaned all of my cages and herp room. Well, her cage was the thrid cage of the day. So I opened the cage and didn't use my "sheild" between her and I. She was on the opposite side of the enclosure as the water bowl and "appeared" to be in her typical "good mood". So I reached in there to grab the water bowl and low and behold, she came all the way across the enclosure and got me on my left pointer finger with one fang and the first joint. Well, unlike the copperhead, there was not NO pain what so ever. So, I went ahead and cleaned her bowl and put it back in her enclosure, using the sheild this time might I add. Then, I just stood there sort of in shock that she had just tagged me. I decided to take a break and decide if I was envenomated or not, since there was no pain AT ALL. Well, needless to say, it wasn't a dry bite and me waiting for almost an hour before going to the hospital almost cost me my life. Well after that bite over 2 years ago, I decided that no matter what, I would not ever take any short cuts with any venomous animal again and I haven't. I stuck by the rules and haven't been bit since, until a week ago, grrrrr!!! I still don't take short cuts and always use the proper tools when dealing with hots. BUT, I was in a hurry last sunday and was seperating some mottled rock rattlesnakes into their own enclosures. Well, I got them all finished, but I noticed that I had forgot to put a water bowl in one of the enclosures. No big deal, right?!?! Wrong... Me been in to big of a hurry, I didn't go get my sheild and didn't want to take the snake back out "just to put a water bowl in there" so, I took my long forseps and put the water bowl in the enclosure. Well, I am one of those people, I like things positioned just right and I couldn't get it right and ended up somehow flipping the bowl over. By this time, I was getting aggrevated, because I was in a hurry, and "impatient" <~~~ very bad word when dealing with hots. So I tried to reach in there real quick to turn over the bowl, for some dumb reason, thinking I would be quick enough to flip it with out getting bit and got tagged and loaded up with venom. Now over 50,000.00 later, I see what a complete DUMB @ZZ I was in doing that. My point here is, I have been envenomated 3 times in my life. ALL three bites were with no doubt MY FAULT and COULD have been avoided. This last bite was probably my worse and I take it as a HUGE wake up call. Friends if you DO NOT take short cuts, ALWAYS use the proper tools for the task and animal, don't lose your cool, don't get impatient and follow the "Golden rule" Never put any part of yourself near the business end of a venomous reptile, chances are you won't ever suffer from an envenomation. And trust me my friend, no matter what species you get bit by, IT SUCKS!!!! So to sum it all up, don't be stupid and use common sense and shouldn't ever have a big fat hospital bill or end up 6' under. Bobby Posted by BwViper on September 4, 2004 err to caution I agree with the sentiment for two simple reasons...the law of roulette, and if you always err on the side of caution due to contstant cognizance of getting bit, it takes care of many of those "careless" moments that have led to the majority of bites that have happened to "experienced" keepers. The person who taught me, also taught that mantra, and to my knowlege he's avoided being bit for the last 37 years. Posted by ceejman on June 13, 2004 Whilst I am we aware of a number of keepers and handlers that have not been bitten (here in Australia) I would estimate that of the people I know who keep or have kept a collection of 20+ elapids for more than 5 years I can only think of one who has not been bitten. So whilst its possible its probably not the norm. Thats one in about 100 keepers...not real flash odds. Scott Eipper Posted by BLACKSNAKE on May 14, 2004 comfort level I was one of the people who siad that I would never get bit by a venomous snake.Well it just so happens that i did. One day a buddy and I went out on the same ole day. We were going to move some southern coppers from a junkyard that we have been to a hundred times before. We started getting frustrated cause we were there for hours and not a single snake.Well under an old car door there was a neonate southern and I pinned it as quick as possible. Picked it up didnt realize my grip was wrong. Got too COMFORTABLE working with copperheads. Then the little bastard got just far enough to sink one fang in the tip of my thumb.BAMM!! I was on my way to the hospital. all I am saying is that if you work with venomous animals you tend to get comfortable.Which is when things get dangerous. Daniel Jarvis Posted by rooftop01 on May 10, 2004 snake bite never say never Posted by br1 on May 8, 2004 I have heard that old saying before but I am not sure I believe it. Yes each person that chooses to keep venomous snakes should be prepared for a bite. But there shouldnt be any reason to be expecting a bite if you take the proper care and give the snake the respect it deserves. I do however believe that each person that handles venomous snakes should have a list of the snakes they have and where to get the antivenom for each type of snake they own. also they should have a procedure sheet posted so that if a bite does occur someone with you will know what to do to help and also know to get the proper emergency responders on the phone and headed to help. thats just my 2 cents worth. Posted by Arkansas_Herper on May 5, 2004 It depends...here's why Snakes do not check anyone's I.Q before being handled. Although most keepers of hots exist a little further up the food chain from Beer Commercial Mentality, not all do. (85% of snakebites in Florida involve alcohol; I doubt it is ever isopropanol) Catching a wild hot and taking it home was my first experience toward keeping hemotoxic snakes, and I'm certainly not alone. I have never had a close call because I have never desired to be bitten, and have the faculties to maintain an awareness of what behavior is neccessary to make sure this never happens. (such as not mixing a crotalus with a Cabernet Savignon) Not everyone who keeps venomous snakes reads books or contributes to forums. Some are just boneheads, and they WILL get envenomated eventually. Posted by twoblackbelts on May 4, 2004 Unpredictable A snake is very unpredictable. One day, you could hold it or clean its cage without it biting you, but the next day its striking at everything that moves. You can never tell what kind of mood a snake is in, which is why you should use EXTREME caution when moving a venomous snake. Posted by Viper_Boy on May 2, 2004 snake petter I personaly think it all depends on how well you can read the body language of the snake/snakes that you own. In the case where the owner keeps lots of snakes and doesn't interact with them as much as he/she could, then if he/she suddenly decides to pick one up hot and pet it, then yes, the owner is likely to get bit. However, as it is in my case, I own one venomous snake which I know intemately and can easily read its body language and know when to let off. Also, its a pretty docile snake, by nature, seeing as how it's a southern copperhead, so I can take him out and, as the name pet implies, pet him. Posted by supremebean on May 1, 2004 true Personaly I feel that the saying is ment to keep us from thinking that we cant be bitten. You all have also herd the saying 6 foot tall and bulletproof well……I agree with the saying because, no matter how careful or good you are the is a chance you will be bitten. I myself don’t keep hots I only do snake removal. But some times I do have to “handle” them, when I do I use proper tools! I have never touched a hot snake with my skin. All in All I agree with the saying because it keeps use from thinking we cant be hurt!! Posted by copperheadkid15 on May 1, 2004 i don tink so! if you speak to a true veteran, one who has handeled hots into his golden years (as i and most of us probably have), that person would likely tell you that it is indeed not a forgone conclusion that if we handle or keep venemous reptiles for a period of time that sooner or later we will get tagged. with the next breath however, that keeper might relay to you the time or two he/she had been bitten. it is always possible and as keepers we know this. I believe that lack of focus (often the result of alcohol or compliant attitudes in the case of novices), poor housing construction; especially construction that does not take into consideration the responsibility of feeding, and inexperience are the doorways to invenimation. it is a good idea in my opinion to study the proceedures and techniques of the handeling and feeding proceedures of zoos and universities. it has never been TOO hard for me to find people here that would spend time educating me in their methods. i think also that is is a consitant and methodic approach to keeping venemous reptiles that will kee me from being invenomated. there are many "golden years" keepers that have never been bit. Posted by lanjam on May 1, 2004 If you lose respect for the animal and what its capable of , you'll get tagged. Never take any hot for granted , use the proper tool's ! I've been a keeper for 30 years ,had some close calls , but have managed to use these "wake up calls" as a reminder,a learning experience if you will.Don't be fearful to share your knowledge th the inexperienced. Posted by rthom on April 30, 2004 Pshaw! Handling venomous reptiles is like ... NOTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD! Get over yourselves! If you don't give the alert venomous animal your entire respect and attention, you will make a mistake and put yourself in a position where the animal will get you. Those keepers/handlers that maintain their concentration and respect of the animals' abilities have every reason to expect not to be bitten. It is a personal issue, not an inevitable one. Savoring the Swiss, The Mouse In The House Posted by AnonEMouse on April 30, 2004 like ring motorcycles, there are two kinds of riders: those that have crashed those that will its a matter of time Posted by 91C2 on April 30, 2004 SNAKE BITES LIKE PLAYING WITH FIRE, YOUR GOING TO GET BURNT SOONER OR LATER. RACING CARS, YOUR GOING TO CRASH SOONER OR LATER, RIDING OR FIGHTING BULLS YOUR GOING TO GET THE HORN SOONER OR LATER. LOL JUST MY YHOUGHTS, CAUSE I'VE BEEN BITTEN, CRASHED MY RACE CAR AND HAVE GOTTEN THE HORN. (RETIRED RODEO CLOWN)HEHE Posted by rodeoclown on April 29, 2004 What? I don't understand the survey question. I've never heard the "old saying." It really all depends. Anything can happen when you're dealing with a venomous complex, and hoping not to get bit at the same time. Posted by crick100 on April 26, 2004 Depends on the individual I beleive you can go without getting bitten.I've said before, people who are into things like free handleing make the statement hold true.I started in '81 and so far haven't been tagged.I use mostly shift-boxes to move my snakes, I feel its better for them and me.When I do use hooks or tongs its for putting them in a trashcan for soaking or something.I always use tubes if I have to remove old shed,tics, eyecaps forcefeed, etc.Theres another saying"You can't get bit if your never within stike range".Marty Posted by Marty1st on April 25, 2004 no I think that a person can go his or her life with out being bitten if you use the tools and pay attention it is possible. with our technology and new tools coming out almost every day there's no reason a person should ever even touch the snake. Plus saying that its only a matter of time thats saying its ok to get bit at least once sense its already going to happen.Be prepared for the worst but expect only perfection in your handling skills.thanks shane Posted by elapidking81 on April 24, 2004 just my insignificant opinion With today's equipment and appropriate cage construction, I feel there is no reason why anyone should have to be bitten by one of their animals. Do you keep so many snakes that you cannot build appropriate cages for all of them? Do you have shift boxes, cage dividers, feeding doors? Do you feel the need to put your hands on your venomous snakes everytime you need to clean the cage? Yes, accidents do happen, but usually happen because someone didn't take the precautions they KNOW they should have taken. If you have hundreds of venomous snakes in rubbermaid sweater boxes that you pull out to feed and clean, then perhaps a bite is inevitable for you. If you prefer to pick your snake up with a hook and tail it instead of just using a shift box, then perhaps a bite is inevitable for you. Not meant to offend anyone, just my own little opinion. For those wondering, I have been keeping hots for about 16 years, including various rattlers, gaboons, rhino vipers, Monacle and Suphan cobras, Shield-nose cobras, squamigers, temple vipers, cerastes. I may well walk into my back yard today and get bit by an Eastern Diamondback or Moccasin.. but the ones in my room won't get me. Posted by Robbie on April 24, 2004 A "fool" responding about "dumb luck" Mostly for "funfangs": It is not about bragging! It is about a mindset - whether or not you BELIEVE in the saying. I do not. The question asked was not about mistakes made! Everyone makes mistakes. Not all mistakes made result in a situation where the animal "chooses" whether or not to bite you. "Get serious." No-one takes this more seriously than I do. I agree with recommendations #1 through #3 but #4 is rude and denigrating. I DO believe that it is possible to keep venomous snakes and never be bitten. I also believe that people who keep venomous snakes with the expectation that someday they will be bitten because it is inevitable will not be as careful as those who are actively trying to prevent ever being bitten. Every time I open a cage or go to a house to remove a venomous snake, I do everything I can to minimize contact, aggravation, and possiblity of snakebite. I will certainly post when my "dumb luck" runs out. Until then, I prefer to believe that carefully thought out (and followed) safety procedures are the proper way to go. Preparing for the possibility of a bite is just plain responsible keeping and is not "preparing for the inevitable." Just my personal thoughts as a keeper, Karl H. Betz Posted by Buzztail1 on April 23, 2004 I believe you can have v-reps for a lifetime and never get bit. With the tools availible now, there is no reason anyone should have to get close enough to take a bite. On the other hand, the thrill seekers will always free-hand v-reps for the adrenaline rush or a number of other reasons. I personally believe if you allways think you are about to take a strike you will never get bit. Posted by atrox72 on April 21, 2004 Yes Everyone makes mistakes, some can be worse than others, I handle eastern cottonmouths and southern copperheads on a regular basis. I have yet to get bitten during the course of this study and hope to avoid that, however, from time to time, I do make mistakes. Those mistakes have not led to a bite as yet, but my luck may run out, thankfully I am working with snakes with a relatively* mild venom, not that I would ever choose to stick my hand in the cages to find out. So it is not when you make that mistake leading to a bite, but when, and will you make the same mistake again. Jared Posted by jared_cormier on April 21, 2004 snakebite Venomous keepers can brag that they have never been bitten, but how many have never made ANY mistakes while handling? Whether you admit it or not, the reason you weren't bitten is that the animal chose not to, not you being "careful" or your special bond with snakes. Get serious. It is a fool's fantasy to wallow in such wreckless expectation. Sounding so pessimistic, there are some things we all should do. 1. Use all precautions according to your criteria, everytime. 2. Keep a friend close by should you be debilitated and unable to call for help. 3. Know the availablity of antivenin and make sure it is ready. 4. Keep praying for dumb luck. The survey shows an alarming belief of many that they will never be bitten. At the very least, be prepared should the unthinkable actually happen. Posted by funfangs on April 21, 2004 Focus! If you have given in to the concept of eventually being bitten you are bound to drop your guard just to "let it happen". I beg to differ. As a snakebite instructor, I am familiar with every description of pain you can imagine associated with snakebite. I try to follow the same regimen of rules that one would follow when dealing with electricity or firearms. In other words, I don't get in the strike range and I use tools whenever I can. Tubes are also a regular part of handling. I also never "free-handle" snakes. In summary, being bitten hurts, and from plenty of past experiences I happen to know that I don't like pain. It's just that simple. Posted by Chris_Harper on April 21, 2004 to bite or not to bite if you flirt with danger for any extended period of time it doesnt matter how good you are sooner or latter youve got to submit to the inevitable. Ethan Posted by snakemn on April 20, 2004 Let me say It is just like driving a car. If your on the road enough your going to have a wreck. It's a mathematical fact. How many people do you know that have been driving for ten or so years without having a wreck? No matter if it was their fault or not. The same is true with keeping hots, or at least this is my belief. We can all take steps to ensure that we operate as safely as possible within our hobby, however venomous snakes are dangerous, wild, unpredictable animals and sooner or later WACK!! Tks Ben & Cayla Vanecek Posted by vemon on April 20, 2004 Though the right tools make the job much safer. I have seen snakes do things that they could not do. Meaning just when you know your safe, your not. a little To big of a tube and the snake made a turn and you were trying to doctor it and did not see it turn. Or God the door was open to far I did not see it. The hook broke, I had to let go so hard on the tongs I did not want to hurt the snake. I did not have a good grip with the tongs and it slid right through them. There is no way of beating all the odds all the time. I am not saying you can not go through your hole life with out a bite. But, I feel if it can go wrong sooner or later it will. Anything can happen and does. Just my thoughts. Posted by Fabian on April 19, 2004 People make mistakes and when you are working with electricity you sometimes get shocked. It may happen to a person when they first start out or have 30 years without a bite. It is an accident which means it was not planned. I went 10 years extracting venom from 200 to 1000 snakes a week before I made my first mistake. And of my envenomations only two were while extracting. All tools should be used but sometimes people take short cuts and that leads to a bite. I have trained several individuals over the years and most have been lucky enough to not have made a mistake. But being human we all make them. Posted by JRHarrison on April 19, 2004 It's a matter of interpretation... On the one hand, if you assume because of this saying that there's no way you can avoid eventually being bitten, then you may not see the point in doing everything you can to reduce the risk. That's called a self-fulfilling prophecy... On the other hand, the way I like to look at this saying is that you should prepare as much as possible to deal with being bitten since you can't completely eliminate the risk, while still doing everything you can to prevent it. In other words PREPARE as if it's only a matter of when. Posted by LarryDFishel on April 17, 2004 NO Any individual that works with venomous reptiles must always be mindful of the possibility of being envenomed. The chance for error is always there. A moments distraction could cost the keeper life or limb. Many (but of course not all)long term keepers have had the unfortunate experience of recieving a venomous bite. If a keeper is working with these animals on a daily basis for decade after decade his chances of being bitten are much higher than the average person. Professions such as venomous extraction that require one to restrain the snakes head raise the odds even further. However, if one is incredibly cautious and follows simple safety precautions (as is required of any and all venomous reptile keepers)the chances of envenomation are much, much lower. If basic handling and safety protocol is followed there is NEVER any reason to be bitten. Carelessness, inexperience and complacency are what kills venomous reptile keepers. Not venomous reptiles. It is easy for ANYONE to fall prey to complacency when you work with these animals on a daily basis. Posted by Crotalus75 on April 17, 2004 No "Its not if you get bit, its when you get bit". That is entirely false if you do things the way they should be done to attempt to perfect safety. At the safest level of snake keeping, there is no reason that you need to come in contact with a venomous snake. Between trap boxes and cage dividers, you dont have to touch them at all. If something closer is needed, like a treatment, TUBES are very important. You do not need to come in contact with a hot snake to tube it. I am not saying that even I follow these rules exact, however if you do, there is a good chance that you will never be bitten. So far I have kept venomous snakes for about 3 years. I currently have 1.1 albino Naja kaouthia, 1.1 Naja pallida, and 1.0 Naja naja (indian). I have also kept many vipers and pit vipers in the past. I am proud to say, although I havent kept snakes as long as most of the members on this site that I have not been bitten. I have had my close calls, but they were in the beginning of my keeping years. I have not had a close call in any recent time. So the answer to never being bitten....Proper caging, equipment, tools, experience and knowledge. Never underestimate an animals abilities. Never let your guard down, and NEVER take your eyes off of the snake. The above is my opinion only, however if someone can reason with it, Id appreciate your input. Thanks Chris Posted by CFoley on April 17, 2004 To post a comment, you must be logged in. If you are not a member, become one now!