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RE: Reckless/criminal behavior
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by timberrattlesnake89 on February 10, 2005
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Jim,
The only reason I brought up Venom 1 is because someone was wanting to know about antivenin. A few days after we worked with the cobra, Ray Hunter(CobraMan) was saying that it was a venomoid. He said that the guys say its not but they are lying. There is one person in the Herp Business who can do venomoid perfectly. I think driving is as dangerous as working with that snake. I drive everyday and I take risk there too. Working with a King Cobra was one my life long goal and when the oppitunity knocked I took it. I personally don't worry to much about death. When my time comes and hopefully not soon I can be fine with it. How is it that I was copying people on t.v.? I am not doing anything of the sort. I am fine with the critism. I am very used to it. When I tell people what my passion is I get it. I also get critizied for being atheist too. I just would like to live in peace. If I die by a snake then so be it. I hope not to but I am fine if I am. I do not want to die but if I did it is ok. People might take offense to that and that is fine. Just it always seem to be a big debate over what I do. Everyone else in are group was freehandling and even the owner of the snake. I was not. I was very careful with the snake. I said take a picture and one person did. I lifted its body up for only about 10 seconds and then but it back down.
Phillip
Live and Let Live
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RE: Reckless/criminal behavior
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by sceniccityreptiles on February 10, 2005
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I figured I would get dragged into this. I have deleted the other thread, no sense in this mess taking up two threads. Here is the deal. I was there. The Tri-State Herpetological Society took a field trip to south FL. We rented a van, everyone shared the cost. Six of us all together. We were on a trip together, but they were not in subjection to me. I could not tell them what to do and not do??? They are not my children, it was not my store and it was not my snake. Not sure what you would have liked me to do? I would prefer to address you by name but you lacked the courage to post it. I have a couple things to add.
Phillip: Stop name dropping man. When people tell you stuff, they mean for it to be between you and them. Don’t go post their name on the net and then what they said.
Jim: You are easily one of the top five venomous keepers. With that status, you need to pick your battles. Arguing with 15 year olds on the internet will devalue your opinions, and we don’t need that.
Jeremy: Just liked we talked about in person…you need to limit your risks.
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RE: Reckless/criminal behavior
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by Chris_Harper on February 10, 2005
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I think Jim's point is valid Phillip. If you want to be a part of the venomous community, you should respect both it, and the people who have gone before you and earned respect for themselves. Jim has earned to right to make the call that he did.
If "anyone" is bitten, the press makes a big deal out of it. But if a 15 year old is bitten - in a store that SELLS venomous reptiles, [regardless of your size], the press would go nuts with it, and it definitely could be the kind of thing that causes new legislation to be drafted in Florida. Being a part of this community and taking that kind of risk is unfair to those of us who work hard to create an image of credibility for private venomous keepers.
Chris Harper
webmaster
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RE: Reckless/criminal behavior
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by Snakeman1982 on February 10, 2005
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Interesting posts! Certainly a lot to read and look at.
I certainly understand the thrill and wanting to do incredible things like catch cool venomous snakes and handle enormous and impressive species. I certainly have a lot of photographs of myself handling venomous species, though I don't like the captivity stuff. I certainly admire Jeremy's thoughts on his passion and it seems like few things will persuade him away from what he wants. That is a good trait to have if used contructively. A lot of people will tell you what to do and not to do, especially at that age. With that attitude if you keep your mind straight and work towards a goal, you should be able to accomplish it. But be careful about your goals and learn how to accomplish them.
When I was 16-19 years old I was thinking about performing the "kiss of death" someday. That's kiss a live King Cobra on the top of the head for those that don't know. A really stupid thing to do but certainly a thought in my head. Though I also wanted to do it with a wild one because I can't stand captive animals. Only a few years older, now I'd probably pass on it. There are other cool things to do instead and it is all for nothing if you die. When you work so hard for something, like a Ph.D, you don't want anything to get in the way, even your own stupid goals. I would be very pissed at myself if I spent all this time in school only to get bit and die by a snake before I get the chance to write books, earn a Ph.D, etc...
But there are obviously concerns about doing dangerous things and in this case, I have to mostly agree with the older generation on this one. Doing such things can certainly cause a lot of problems for yourself and others.
And normally I couldn't care less what people do because it doesn't affect me or my future but if you want to become a Ph.D herpetologist you need to look at guys like Harry Greene and the rest. They don't approve of mishandling dangerous animals and certainly wouldn't accept a graduate student who did. If you want to work with guys like that then find out what their students do. And if you want Harry Greene's job someday find out what he has done and what type of experience he has. Then add on to that because the competition gets more each year. So what it took for him to get that nice Cornell job is going to take a bit more for the next generation of super scientist.
Here's the problem you younger people, including myself, have to watch out for with your reputations. If you are wanting to get a Ph.D or even a master's degree in biology and study venomous snakes you have to be very careful what you put out on the internet. Many academics will look at you critically without even meeting you and it can really hurt your chances at getting into a particular graduate school if you have controversial things online. You don't want to show yourself as a liability that they need to worry about. Also, after you get your Ph.D, etc... you will be applying for grant money, University funding, etc... for your research. No one is going to give money to a person or a program that isn't safe.
For example, I know a very well respected herpetologist that has an entire University lab set up with a great rattlesnake project. He has had it set up for almost 10 years and no one has been bit in the lab yet. 4 students have recieved their Ph.Ds from this lab and all have gone off to other Universities to do post-docs and will set up labs of their own. Currently there are 6 graduate students studying there. And he has had tons of grant money come into that lab so far. If one of the grad-students or a temporary undergrad doesn't take things seriously and screws up by getting bit by a venomous snake, it could jeopardize the entire lab. Now 6 graduate students are depending on that funding, lab, and professor to get their Ph.D. If the lab loses grant money and they are no longer able to work in the lab a lot of people are going to be hurting, all because someone got bit. The professor could lose funding and research opportunity, which may ultimately get him fired since it is a research institution and he doesn't teach much, 6 graduate students would be unable to finish their degrees, and other herpetologists in similar labs may have a harder time getting funding because they would be placed at a higher risk. So if you get bit by a venomous snake now, it will haunt you throughout your career and could keep you from getting into your top choice graduate school. Plus there are a ton of other reasons in academia. Professionalism is a must and a person that gets bit a lot by their dangerous study animal isn't looked highly upon. People may criticize your publications just because of your reputation and not take your research as serious. This biologist has been studying rattlesnakes for 25 years and has never been bit. That adds a lot to his near perfect reputation.
If you weren't going for Ph.Ds then I would say throw caution to the wind and who cares. But if you want to be respected in this highly competitive field, you better be good and have as few doors closed to you as possible. I know several people who have almost been rejected to graduate programs because of being bit as undergrads. And in the rhelm of herpetology, people know each other and talk a lot and news travels fast.
I know because it has happened to me. Academics have judged me before they even met me because they heard something about things I've done. So be careful.
Now a little defense for the younger guys.
In the profile picture of "Scootertrash", he is riding a motorcycle. Now I am not trying to slam him by any means, nor do I have a problem with him driving a motorcycle if he wants, just using him as an example here even though he hasn't been part of this conversation, lol. Riding a motorcycle is something I would never do on any main road. You put your life in other people's hands. When you work with venomous snakes the conflict is between you and that snake and 99% of the time, as long as you are cautious, know what you're doing, and don't make a mistake, you will be fine. If an idiot in a "Geo Metro" doesn't see you by accident and hits you while you're on a motorcycle, you are going to lose! If you are in a car you have a good chance of living; you crash on a bike and even if you live you will be all sorts of screwed up. Thousands of people die on motorcycles, very few from snakes. But no one is complaining about his photo, nor should they I am just using it as an example. Poor guy getting picked on for no reason, sorry.
One of my best friends who traveled around with me for two summers up in the northwest to catch rattlesnakes died less than two years ago because he wasn't wearing his seatbelt. His mother was always terrified that he would die from snakebite because he would be out camping with me for weeks looking for great basins all the time. But the dumb lady was so pre-occupied with keeping her son away from obscure deaths that she didn't teach him to wear his seatbelt. He didn't catch rattlesnakes anyway, just tagged along and went camping and hiking while I caught them. And he died by running a stop sign in a small town at only 25 mph. Had she worried more about real issues and taught him to wear his seatbelt he'd be alive.
So what one person sees as highly dangerous isn't always what others see. Jeremy and Phillip thought they were safe, motorcyclists think they are safe, people that don't wear seatbelts, base jumpers, drug users, alcoholics, etc... I would be more concerned if Jeremy and Phillip were doing drugs or drag racing ("normal teenage stuff") than playing with venomous snakes but because so many more kids race cars, drink, etc... it is more accepted. Or ride motorcycles! If Jeremy and Phillip road motorcycles around or got drunk at teenage parties constantly then it is just teenagers "being teenagers". No one would really care, but if they handle a venomous cobra every now and then, that shakes people up. I would rather free-handle a venomous snake on occasion rather than risk my life everyday riding a motorcycle because people think it is normal. Not that I agree with what they did but danger is danger.
I certainly understand how people could be upset though because it is things like this that cause law makers to pass the laws you all hate so much. Adults allowing underage people handling dangerously venomous snakes for a photo op. isn't going to look good in anyones eyes. They won't blaim Jeremy and Phillip as much as the adults. Lets face it, if no one got bit and everyone that owned snakes were "normal", then they wouldn't have reasons to pass laws.
Well there's my buck fifty.
Stay safe,
Robert
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RE: Reckless/criminal behavior
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by Snakeman1982 on February 10, 2005
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By the way guys, I noticed on Phillip's profile it says he wants to earn a Ph.D in herpetology. As of right now I don't know any Universities that offer that. I wish they did, but they don't. You have to be a biologist before you can be a herpetologist. That means you have to get a B.S., M.S., and Ph.D in biology, zoology, biochemistry, wildlife conservation, ecology, etc... and use herps as your study animals. Here is a link that should help you out.
It, along with a couple more that are no longer websites, helped me out when I was in high school.
http://www.ku.edu/~ssar/career.html
Now is the time to start talking to professors at Universities and finding out more about biological possibilities. Most Universities have herpetologists there. Georgia and Florida have herpetologists everywhere and some of the best. So e-mail or whatever you have to. Find out what it takes and what you need to do in order to get in school to start your degrees in biology. But if you are going for a Ph.D, be prepared for at least 10 years or more of school after high school. Not to mention post-docs, etc...
Good luck,
Robert
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RE: Reckless/criminal behavior
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Anonymous post on February 10, 2005
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I just read the statement that Timberrattlesnake wrote in this thread. Phillip, of course you are not worried about death, you are 15.. thats why. Think you are untouchable. Well Kid, I cut kids like you out of cars all the time when you wrap it around a tree. Say you are an Anthiest?? Please in your best words describe your thoughts of an Athiest to me. I would love to take you to work with me and work the trauma and treat the sick that I do everyday. Then maybe you will have a different outlook on life son. I see sick and dead people everyday. Trust me, you are not untouchable when death comes knocking. You might want to change your attitude a little. I believe you and jermey have serious issues. You both are young and have no clue what life has to offer. It is right in your face and you are missing it. Jermey, if WORDS typed on a screen make you so upset you want to die, then you need to get help or stay off the computer, or both. You kids need to grow up.
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by Rabies on February 11, 2005
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"I'm Not a minor I'm eighteen" true but your still a teenager! Irrelavent what carear/hobby you decide to take in the future, one golden rules always apply's "The ability to except advice from others and the patience and willingness for continuous learning." Something that most juveniles/teenagers find very hard to except.
Regards
John
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by Phobos on February 11, 2005
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Well...
This has been quite a blood bath..everybody has their "FANG OUT" and putting them to work. I ask everyone to please..step back and cool down.
The origional intent was not to demean Jeremy or Phillip. They were just examples, just like others have used in this thread. If GOD had a profile on SHHS I'm sure someone one would have pulled it into the frey. The actions of the adults in the picture is what really bothers me. Just one of the symptoms of our plight.
The point was the hobby is in serious KIM CHEE and we need to mobilize to try to save whats left. I have not lost sight of what it's like to be 17, remember, I was bitten by a horridus at 17 because I refused to listen and of course knew better than the adults. I came to my senses and did not keep or handle a HOT snake till I was finished with college. So, I speak from experience. Robert is very correct regarding what you do now will haunt you forever.
What is needed NOW is for people to keep a very close eye on their State houses for activity that effects US as a group. Matt and I are flat out with the AV Bank which we hope to duplicate and spread out to cover as many states as possible. It's formation will be the cornerstone of any defense we mount against BANS. We need a National Organization to unite our Banner against those who would ban our hobby. WE need a LEADER to step forward to take this and run with it.
Sincerely,
Al Coritz
neavb.org
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by bush_viper17 on February 11, 2005
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To anonymous, I wasnt refering to the words on the screen that made me feel depressed. Im just saying things that have happened in the past with me. Im not going to get mad though, theres nothing to be mad about. I do understand what phobos was talking about when he said we were good examples. Its too high risk to do what we did especially when the media would be all over it if something went wrong. I dont want everyone to be mad at the store were the snake was handled, They had great animals and all were healthy and looked beautiful. That was actually the best reptile shop ive been in. Lets just cool down and look forward to the warm weather thats coming soon.
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by bush_viper17 on February 11, 2005
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Im open to any advice. Any one that knows me knows that I will listen to anything they have to say. I know that I am still young and puffed up. I do jump the gun too fast sometimes when I feel under attack. That is part of growing up along with other things. I will listen to anything that Jim or anyone on here has to say. I know that some of these people on here have been to places and done things that I cant even dream of. Jim, Im sorry for being childish when you were offering me advice. To Phobos, I did take offense when I first read it but I completely understand where you are coming from. Who am I to argue with the veterans of this community when I cant even grow a full beard yet. One thing that I did want people to do though was to look at my side also. It was dangerous but think back to when you guys were my age. I just dont want there to be any hard feeling between us.
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