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RE: larger sex?
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by Buzztail1 on August 5, 2006
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Doug, I tend to agree with your position but think you actually stopped just short of the worst aggravation.
I, too, find "coppers" and "cottons" annoying but not nearly as much as "aggies", "my kaouthia", "caught two atrox today", "all I found were these hyla".
I believe your depiction of the mountain dew drinking skateboard crowd image of coolness has significant merit. On the surface it does seem cool to talk about "chunks" and "trapjaws" as if they are our everyday familiars. Keeping them in cages in our bedrooms, livingrooms, dens, etc gives us that feeling of familiarity.
We tend to lose the respect that one must naturally feel when encountering such a grand beast in its natural habitat. And when someone calls us on our lack of respect, well, who are they anyway that they can diminish my knowledge of what I personally know and keep?
A pity. I have spent too many hours to count just observing these animals in the wild. I love the ones I keep and use every opportunity to educate the public through their proximity. But not one caged snake can come close to the feeling of finding one in the wild and seeing how it fits into the ecosystem.
As for which sex is the larger for any given families?
Pretty much, just like humans I expect. The male is ALWAYS larger. Well except for Sonny and Cher, of course. And then there was ... well you get the idea.
There are generalities and to every stated generality there is an exception. Better just to tube and probe.
The truth of it is, Dylan, that you have received answers from two of the most qualified people on this forum to have an opinion. Both zookeepers from a couple of the best zoos in the country. I'd say that speaks pretty well for our "overly mature board".
Karl H. Betz
Buzztail1@hotmail.com
PS - I have been Buzztail1 since Al Gore invented the internet. Anywhere you find me posting, you should be able to find a filled out profile with my real name and real email address. KHB
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RE: larger sex?
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by LarryDFishel on August 6, 2006
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Alright, I'll be the one to ask:
Could abreviating common names possibly be as annoying as hijacking a perfectly good thread with 5 pages of ranting about an unrealated subject? I'll reserve further comment unless someone starts a separate thread for this.
So I can say a didn't do exactly the same thing, here's what little info I have.
1) I have 2.3 cottonmouth siblings that I have cared for since birth, that have all eaten virtually every time food was offered, all on the same schedule and approximately the same size meal each time. They've probably eaten the same amount, within a few ounces, in the last year.
Length in inches:
Sex 5/26 8/3 delta
M 25.1 31.7 6.6
M 23.9 30.2 6.3
F 21.9 29.0 7.1
F 25.8 30.5 4.7
F 24.1 30.4 6.3
(Sorry, doesn't seem to be a good way to format this)
As you can see, they are virtually identical so far, except for the one runt female who seems to be catching up. Yes, they are huge for their age (they were unusually big at birth too). Yes, they really grew 6 inches in 2 months. Yes, I have probably been feeding them too much, and it's about time to back off a little. However, I'm afraid they may riot...as it is they all come to the font of their cages "begging" 10 minutes after I feed them.
Also, I just read part of a paper in "Biology of the Vipers" (while looking for something else) that suggests that wild western cottonmouths grow at close to the same rate for the first few years and then females slow down and males keep going (I think they had records for 5 years).
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RE: larger sex?
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by Buzztail1 on August 6, 2006
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Larry,
One of the things I think contribute to size differences in male and female snakes is the developement of young and the toll that takes on the females' bodies.
Crotalus and Bitis, being live bearers, would tend to not lose the calcium needed for egg production as the Naja and Micrurus would. Therefore, it would seem to follow, that the females from those families (Bitis and Crotalus) would be larger to provide growing room for their live born young. The elapids (Naja and Micrurus) females would lose body mass as their bodies give up calcium for egg production.
Just my thoughts (on topic) without having done any actual research (or even googling) along those lines.
Karl
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RE: larger sex?
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by stopgetinpopped on August 7, 2006
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As far as sexual size difference etc. Take a look at the species where male to male combat is the norm, Rattlesnakes for example. You'll find that the males of these are generally larger than the females. Wherein pythons the females are much larger than the males as you don't have as much male to male combat. Not the best examples as some pythons do routinely combat... However, it is pretty accurate. Both are generalizations with exceptions to every rule.
on the highjacked portion of the thread. I firmly agree with everything Doug said initially.
Though the ones that irritate me the most are:
Green Anaconda: There is an Anaconda and a Yellow Anaconda. (and a few subspecies)
Crotes:... That one bugs me. Might as well say "Look Ma, thems Rattlers in them thar hills"
And my personally most irritating one...
Hot Snakes?
I don't keep any hot snakes, though I do have a thousand Venomous snakes.
Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
As far as hijacking a thread goes... the neat thing about a "conversation" whether internet or oral is the fact that they evolve..
Start talking about gas mileage in a vehicle, it leads to roadcruising to the scar on your hunting buddies head from stomping on the vehicle to the good looking nurse that cleaned it up for you...
Evolution is a grand thing, not only in nature but in conversation...
Unpucker the sphincters on occasion.
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RE: larger sex?
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by earthguy on August 8, 2006
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Terry,
If there is a problem with "Ma there's rattlers in them thar hills" and "hot snakes" then why is your call name "stop getin' popped" instead of "stop getting popped" and why are you a member of the SE HOT HERP society? ;)
I find no problems with coloquialisms on this forum. I am intelligent enough to understand them (as I'm sure we all are), even though I try to communicate names as clearly as possible. The French are pretty snobbish about their language (you are looked down upon if you have an Albanian accent, for example), and that drives me crazy. There is a need for clear communication, but not to the extent that people who use slang should be harangued. I try, for example, to communicate that "water moccasin" is not nealy as good a name as "cottonmouth", but if you have a burning desire to call an Agkistrodon piscivorus a "water maccasin", then more power to you.
It is a sad fact of life that I have to not only tolerate nonstandard English in my classroom, I am forced at times to use it, just to get a point across. I think that on this EDUCATIONAL website we should gently and subtly educate by using the proper language with going of on "medication induced" tirades.
Just my two cents worth. No worries.
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RE: larger sex?
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by earthguy on August 8, 2006
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Ooooh, yeah. by the way, I have data that I collected this summer. Generally speaking, of the 100+ that I caught of each species (Agkistrodon p. piscivorus and A. c. contortrix)males were only slightly larger. I have yet to verify and polish my data, but I'm working on that now. More later.
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RE: larger sex?
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by Venomjunkie on August 8, 2006
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well thanks to all that answered my question but i wasnt planning on this argument starting. sorry about that, even though i think its a good learning experience.
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RE: larger sex?
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by Cro on August 8, 2006
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Dylan, what you have seen here is not an argument, it is just folks with different opinions expressing them !
It is also a thread changing, and morphing, and evolving !
That is half the fun of this site, it gives folks with different ideas a chance to share them.
I for one will probably be more carefull about using the term HOT snakes, as it really should be Venomous, as Terry pointed out, and I am guilty of using that term on a few occasions.
The main thing is that you posed an interesting question, one that obviously has some different opinions with it, and we had a good time discussing it !
Keep posting great questions, so folks here can excersize their minds, LOL !
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: larger sex?
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by AquaHerp on August 9, 2006
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Dylan,
It was never intended to be an argument. And oddly enough, has never really gotten out of control like many of the threads here do. Granted the original focus of the question wavered with my taking some of the "aspect" of the question another direction. But all in all, it stayed pretty well on track, even those answering about one subject, reverted back to answering both, so no real harm done. It became a quest for the greater good, if you will...LOL. Hopefully you weren't turned off by it as I said in the beginning, nothing was directed at you personally, or anyone personally for that matter. It was just one of those things I see in postings all the time that chewed away at me until I finally said something, yours just happened to be that post. Lucky you eh?
As far as anyone else wanting to make it personal, that’s just the nature of these message boards. There’s always a few that just can’t resist that. Personally I make no apologies as I rarely have much to say so I usually reserve what I do type out.
Doug Hotle
General Curator
Abilene ZOOlogical Gardens
Abilene, Texas
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