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keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by rickyduckworth on August 20, 2006
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in articles, there is usually something about keeping your own antivenom and how it's responsible but how realistic is it?
1) it's expensive......most can't afford even one vial, much less multiple vials
2) it doesn't have an infinite shelf life.....people can call it insurance but there is usually a cheaper alternative to this called INSURANCE that won't deplete anyone's antivenom supply or the keeper's bank account as much and may be helpful in the event of something else other than a venomous snake bite
3) why is it up to the private, law abiding keeper to do this instead of local establishments raking in millions per year to treat these sorts of things? if a keeper is abiding by the law, then the hospitals should not only have an implementable bite protocol but the proper antivenom as well.......
it just seems a bit ridiculous to expect this of anyone.......those with money to burn could handle the financial burden of it, sure, but the REAL "average person" is far from what is considered the idealic "average person" here in america......there are far more living just above the poverty line than the census will ever admit.....i have a friend in europe who has no clue what it's really like here.....she's middle class there but would qualify as upper class here.....
seems like an attack on the average person and to say that keeping hots should only be done by those who CAN afford to keep the antivenom around is very arrogant....there are many who can't afford to keep that "insurance" around but can make contributions to the community.....
it's just thrown around as "smart to do" when it's not very realistic.......the burden should be placed solely on institutions like hospitals, in states like mine especially.....i keep legal animals so a bite would mean it's a native species.....
but how often is bite protocol just wrong? what good will antivenom do if it's administered wrong or other parts of the process are done incorrectly? i wouldn't be surprised to have some nurse trying to "suck the poison out of my bite" while another was sawing body parts off to avoid further envenomation......i can handle the protocol but no way can i afford vials of a/v
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by GREGLONGHURST on August 21, 2006
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Keeping one's own antivenin for local snakes should not be necessary, however, one should make sure the nearest hospital maintains the antivenin. If the keeper maintains dangerous exotics, he or she ought to either be a member of an antivenom bank that is close enough to be of assistance or should have another source for the needed medication. If there is no other source, keeping one's own supply seems to be the only thing between an accident and a fatality.
Ricky..I noticed you were wearing socks while being photographed with the copperhead. Boots offer much more protection.
~~Greg~~
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by SimplySnakes on August 21, 2006
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The last time I checked, the Florida Antivenom Bank was not accepting new members. Is there another place we can go?
Paul
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by Buzztail1 on August 21, 2006
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Ricky, I normally avoid the antivenom debates because i only keep indigenous venomous but I wanted to address a couple of things in your post.
1) Most people do not recommend keeping antivenom for locally indigenous species. HOWEVER, not all hospitals carry it. I found that out the hard way as I spent an entire evening calling facilities in NE Florida and SE Georgia to find antivenom for a friend who was bitten by his Eastern Diamondback. You really need to find out if your local hospital carries antivenom and if not, what is the nearest facility that does.
2) All the rest of what I intend to address is aimed at the exotic species antivenoms. "it's expensive......most can't afford even one vial, much less multiple vials" Yes, it can be expensive. That is why the snakes themselves should be more expensive. If you can't afford the expenses of keeping the snakes then you shouldn't be keeping the snakes. The vast majority of people posting to our survey believed that a bite is an eventuality for venomous keepers. Therefore, they must believe that antivenom use is an eventuality. Not having any seems to me to be quite the gamble.
3) "it doesn't have an infinite shelf life.....people can call it insurance but there is usually a cheaper alternative to this called INSURANCE that won't deplete anyone's antivenom supply or the keeper's bank account as much and may be helpful in the event of something else other than a venomous snake bite" This actually covers two separate issues. Have you priced insurance for keeping exotic venomous snakes? I think in most situations, it will be cheaper to get your own antivenom. The other issue is that just having insurance to pay for the antivenom you may need will not magically make it available. Someone will still have to store it and deal with that shelf-life issue.
4) "why is it up to the private, law abiding keeper to do this instead of local establishments raking in millions per year to treat these sorts of things? if a keeper is abiding by the law, then the hospitals should not only have an implementable bite protocol but the proper antivenom as well......."
This one was easy. Keeping is a priviledge - NOT a right. Therefore, it is your responsibility to support your priviledge. The "establishments" raking in the millions? They generally aren't snakebite treatment centers. Bites are rare (in the big picture of things) and it isn't priceworthy even to train anyone to be a bite specialist.
My basic point is that the "average person" who is "just above the poverty line" should not be keeping gaboon vipers and cobras and any of the other way too available exotic venomous reptiles for which they cannot afford antivenom. As I said above, the situation is entirely different for locally indigenous venomous snakes. I grew up as one of those kids who goes out and finds neat things and brings them home to keep. Fortunately, most (but not all) local hospitals carry antivenom for those critters in their neighborhoods.
Maybe I am arrogant to believe that my insurance rates and taxes shouldn't have to go up to support someone else's priviledge to keep something that they really aren't prepared (financially or otherwise) to keep. But keep in mind that it is not a right and should the financial burden fall to the institutions, their voice is louder and much more consolidated than ours when it comes to making laws concerning our priviledges.
Just a quick bit about the protocol issue. There are statistically more people hit by lightning in this country each year than are bitten by venomous snakes. How much time in medical school do you suppose is taken up training people to deal with the results of a lightning strike? Probably none if any at all. So it stands to reason that most people going into a hospital for an exotic snake bite are doubly screwed. Their physician not only hasn't had any real training in dealing with a venomous snake bite, he may never have even heard of the snake that did the biting! Protocols have been popping up on the internet left and right. Think about that for a minute or two. That is due to some reptile person spending time with some medical person and developing them! That took time which quite often is a lot of money in the medical field at least. And there they are - available online for anyone to download and use. Is it so much to ask for people to download it, print it, and check it to make sure that it seems reasonably correct?
I don't think so.
It IS "smart to do"! Be happy that it isn't yet the mandatory thing to do. I can see that being the next step in the "logical lawmaking procession."
The key differences that people overlook in this whole debate is the indigenous/exotic break.
Do you realistically need to buy CroFab? I don't think so.
Should you realistically buy whatever covers your exotic snake? I emphatically say YES, YOU DO.
Just my own opinion.
Karl H. Betz
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by thenovice on August 21, 2006
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it is legal to have your own antivenom BUT, it has to be perscribed by a doctor. it's a good idea if youre constatly in contact with hots but unpracticle to keep it, i talked to the guys from venom 1 and asked him the same question.
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by rickyduckworth on August 21, 2006
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first off buzztail, i completley understand what you're saying but i'm gonna play devil's advocate anyway, so don't take this personally.....i'm argumentative because without arguments, nothing really gets solved in life.....hell, you're a part of the military, you know where i'm coming from
my lack of grammar may offend some but i don't care and i will never care....words convey an idea and if you can't get that idea, my grammar sure won't help
how exotic are exotics nowadays.....a lot of florida's "soon to be indigenous" animals are exotic.....i've seen monitors in iron city, TN......there are gators in many unnatural places, etc
1) but see, hospitals are allowed to financially rape everyone because they are forced to take on "less than profitable situations" so why is it too much to ask for them to keep antivenom or have a quick connection that does? snakes are a part of the wild, humans are constantly driving them out of their habitat and forcing the issue, so it stands to reason that snake bites will happen.....makes sense that as snakes lose more of their habitat and are forced to either die or coexist with humans that more bites will occur......either the prices should come down on health care dramatically or they should be prepared to care for these common situations....not fair to have it in favor of the hospital/business on both accounts.......
2) so you do think that the rich should also be the priveleged? that's easy to say when there have been nearly 50 government pay raises since the last minimum wage increase......as long as the rich make laws, there will be an increasing gap between the haves and have-nots....thing is, without the have-nots, we wouldn't have as much info on all sorts of things, venomous snakes included.......only a fool would anticipate a bite and still keep hots......that's a horrible mindset to have; "i will fail, so let's get to it".........these are the kinds of people we can do without......
3) so let's say you buy enough antivenom to COMPLETELY address a bite from a big, angry gaboon......now that's a ton of cash, because if you're only planning on buying SOME of it, you're not doing much good are you? to be totally prepared, you'd most definitely have to go overboard and overestimate the amount of antivenom necessary to counter that bite.....to partially do this is to completely destroy your argument.....you're either prepared or you aren't.....now that sum of money is gonna be pretty high and to outdo insurance costs, you'd have to most definitely suffer a bite......when it goes to waste or is tampered with or just lost in a natural disaster, you have to purchase more.......so again, this comes down to whether or not you plan on being bitten.....3rd party bites happen how often? so it IS a matter of your own safety? isn't it safer to keep NO animals at all and to avoid basically everything? where do you draw the line? you can't
4) why is it a privelege? if it has to do with necessity, then go ahead and preach to everyone about everything.....you can't seperate necessity from priveleges in a day where we're dependent on so many stupid things......is it a privelege to walk normally? my little girl has cerebral palsy and will never walk normally so should others feel priveleged to do so? i had a 36" vertical jump, so should i feel priveleged to dunk even though i'm colorblind and allergic to milk? where do you draw the line? if you are gonna draw it here just because it fits your argument, then you're just winging it and can't be argued with because reality doesn't mean much......are we priveleged just to be alive? IMO, we're here to be happy.....i'm not religious or spiritual and feel that this is all we have.....we have to be happy or we just lose at this game....for me to be happy, i have to be able to do certain things, have certain experiences, etc......i like cars, snakes, sports, etc......i could necessitate any of these things in the same way the average person would necessitate other things......
your whole argument is one of a very responsible keeper, but realistically makes little sense when compared to other things.......should the kid who plays baseball be prepared for a broken arm? should the guy who rides horses be prepared for a paralyzing fall? how many cyclists own halos just in case they're nailed by an unattentive driver and break their neck...
i completely understand what you're saying, i just think that you're taking the easy way out and putting the burden in a place that MOST can't afford.......and it's completley hypocritical to stop with the "privelege" of keeping hots......why not burden everyone with everything you can think of that pertains to their enjoyment.....your argument is of that nature.......i completely understand how "good old america" is and how "good ole common sense" doesn't much apply here and it reflect in our laws, but keeping that in mind, would the majority really care that each keeper has the necessary antivenom? most couldn't administer it, only giving the hospital enough to get started may prove futile, i can't prove that what i order is what i get, etc.........
i wish more energy was focused on prevention of the bite than taking the easy way out and trying to let money fix everything.......
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by rickyduckworth on August 21, 2006
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hey greg, a full body suit would offer more protection than boots, wouldn't it?.......i was tailing a calm snake i've had for a long time and using a 48" hook to keep it over 3ft away while in a seperate room of the house....not a picture of me posing, i was simply putting it back in it's cage after soaking it and my wife is trigger happy with the camera......you almost discredited my argument with your picture reading skills, though ;)
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by stopgetinpopped on August 21, 2006
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I wonder if it was my articles that you are referring to specifically, if so it's laid out pretty clearly.
It's about responsibility, if you live in my state with a Gaboon Viper (since you used them as an example) it's my fault? and more importantly MY safety at risk because you can't afford the 500-1000. dollars for 10-20 vials of SAIMR Polyvalent sera. If you can't afford it and have to use my antivenom in the event of a bite, I have to risk MY life? Thats arrogant! Or do I need to order enough for two full bites -one for you and one for me- or 3 or 4 or 5? where do I draw the line at how much to order?
I really am sorry for those that can't afford the 500 dollars for sera...but hey I'd like to afford a Ferrari...I wonder if it's Bill Gates obligation to buy me one???
Just for arguments sake...
Maybe you should stick with the native venomous
(And just for clarification the word "you" is not directed at you or anyone else specifically)
Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.
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