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I agree...
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by MattHarris on August 22, 2006
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Ricky,
This isn't about haves and have-nots. Although animals these days are ridiculously cheap and FAR too easy to obtain, should there be laws with more restrictive requirements? Absolutely. There is simply an imbalance in the product and the costs of treatment if an accident occurs.
The cost of a hospital stay to treat a snake bite is not any different than IF you were in a car accident. In the case of automobiles, a new car may run $15,000 BUT before you can drive the thing, you need to have liability insurance to cover damages to others if its your fault and YOU SHOULD have medical insurance to cover your medical treatment. Therefore, you are legally required to carry insurance which costs around $1000/year. So if you want to drive a car, its gonna cost you some money. My antivenom bill for a new stock of Costa Rican polyvalent serum is going to run $1100(including the USDA permit fees). Thats the price of a single bushmaster. Is SAIMR too expensive? Not really, more like Gaboons are too cheap!
If you want to own a snake, you should be able to afford the "Insurance" as well. Its no different whether you have the privilege to drive or the privilege to maintain venomous snakes as a hobby. It isn't a consitutional RIGHT to own snakes, its a privilege. No one should be denied the privilege, but it carries some responsibilities as well.
MCH
www.matabuey.com
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by toddg on August 22, 2006
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Perhaps the antivenin should come with purchase incentives… you know, for every 10th vial of S.A.I.M.I.R. purchased, you get a free puff adder….must be 18 years or older to participate…yada, yada. Seriously though, if you’re going to keep something in your house that could conceivably end you’re life, then you may want to consider keeping the antivenin that could save you’re life! No matter how much it cost! Just my unsolicited $0.02.
toddg
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by Buzztail1 on August 22, 2006
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Ricky,
"how exotic are exotics nowadays.....a lot of florida's "soon to be indigenous" animals are exotic.....i've seen monitors in iron city, TN......there are gators in many unnatural places, etc"
Exotics, these days, are still exotics. Saying that they can be found loose in the US does not make them indigenous or local. Realistically, no venomous escapees are found regularly enough to make them a reasonable antivenom argument.
1) "snakes are a part of the wild, humans are constantly driving them out of their habitat and forcing the issue, so it stands to reason that snake bites will happen.....makes sense that as snakes lose more of their habitat and are forced to either die or coexist with humans that more bites will occur......either the prices should come down on health care dramatically or they should be prepared to care for these common situations....not fair to have it in favor of the hospital/business"
I am not able to go into the cost of running a hospital or health care in the US. However, your other argument here again crosses the line of local vs exotic. MAYBE, people are coming into more contact with venomous reptiles due to habitat loss. More likely people are coming into more contact with venomous reptiles because more people are keeping them. BUT, the argument ONLY holds any validity for local indigenous species. Gaboon Vipers are not being forced from the wilds of Cleveland!
2) sorry, I don't believe in the have/have-nots scenario.
3) "so it IS a matter of your own safety?" YES
"isn't it safer to keep NO animals at all and to avoid basically everything?" YES
"where do you draw the line?" "you can't" I DO.
I don't keep anything that I can't deal with the cost of surviving. My choice, just as it is yours. You can choose to keep Gaboon Vipers without antivenom. And if you get bitten and the hospital does not have/cannot get in time the correct antivenom, your choice DOES NOT make that their fault!
4) "why is it a privelege?"
It is a priviledge because you don't NEED it to survive. You can argue all day long that you do need it to survive and it won't fly. You can't compare not being able to keep venomous reptiles to having cerebral palsy or a good jump shot or being colorblind - none of that comes close to the difference between right and priviledge.
My whole argument IS one of a very responsible keeper. That is the whole point! Are there less responsible keepers? Of course there are! Is antivenom REQUIRED to keep venomous reptiles? Not yet. I'm sorry if you don't see it but keeping exotic venomous snakes and being prepared for a bite is not comparable to little league baseball, riding horses or motor/bicycles. Keeping venomous snakes is a CHOICE to do something that is inherently dangerous and life threatening. If you CHOOSE to do it, YOU are taking the CHANCES.
"i completely understand what you're saying,"
I don't think you do. I am FOR private keeping of venomous snakes and lizards. I am AGAINST anyone else having to pay for someone's choice to keep them.
"i just think that you're taking the easy way out and putting the burden in a place that MOST can't afford"
It is absolutely NOT the easy way out. Making people see that they need to take responsibility for their own choices is one of the hardest things to do.
"...and it's completley hypocritical to stop with the "privelege" of keeping hots......why not burden everyone with everything you can think of that pertains to their enjoyment.....your argument is of that nature.......i completely understand how "good old america" is and how "good ole common sense" doesn't much apply here and it reflect in our laws, but keeping that in mind, would the majority really care that each keeper has the necessary antivenom? most couldn't administer it, only giving the hospital enough to get started may prove futile, i can't prove that what i order is what i get, etc........."
I try very hard to not be hypocritical. I can't afford exotic antivenoms - so I don't keep them. Not even if I was living somewhere that it was legal to do so which I have done in the past (Virginia-13 years, South Carolina-5 years). The majority caring is an issue that we all fight everyday. The majority of Americans think that we shouldn't have this fascinations with yucky icky slimy snakes and we should just kill them all. Does the fact that they are the majority make them right? I sure hope not!
"i wish more energy was focused on prevention of the bite than taking the easy way out and trying to let money fix everything......."
You and me both. So, I pack my snakes up and take them to schools and scouts and businesses and wives groups and herp groups and anyone else who will have me and I educate everyone who will listen about how to avoid being bitten by a venomous snake. I have yet to ask to be paid for a single presentation. The Navy figured out that was what I was doing with my free time and gave me a medal for it. Big deal. Did it change my pay? No. It was a small recognition of someone doing something good for the community with their own time. Generally, when I post and ask who is helping out in this regard, one or two people are and the rest say things like "Why should I do that? It's my right to keep snakes in my home and I don't need to justify it to anyone." Okay, then why should I argue against laws that inhibit their "right to keep snakes"? I focus my energies on educating the public. To that end, I keep venomous snakes.
In "realistic" terms, I think it is much more realistic to believe that keeping venomous reptiles will be completely outlawed in this country before private individuals will be required to stock their antivenom. I wonder which one will become the reality?
Again, these are just my own beliefs. I am not representing anyone other than myself.
Karl H. Betz
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I Normally Leave This Alone "BUT"
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by ALA_snake33 on August 22, 2006
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In my personal opinion, I see this as another possible way for Law Makers to Implement their little Venomous Reptile Bans on our Community. Common sense will tell you that if they pass such a Law, it would cut the amount of Privet Keepers in this country down to nothing.
#1: Consider this, 90% (roughly) of our Community make under $22,000 a Year. If you hold this into consideration, I see no way that Privet ownership of A/V could be realistic. The standard price of a Vial of A/V (CroFab to be exact) is roughly $2,000 is it not? Well, if you take this and multiply it by 10, it makes no sense to me how the He## anyone of Nominal Means could ever afford this.
#2: If A/V only has a 3-5 Year Shelf Life, it would be even more ridiculous to think that your Average Venomous Keeper could ever afford to keep their own Supply.
#3: If a Law is Implemented that requires Venomous Keepers to keep their own A/V, I am sure it would not only be for Exotic Species. Personally, I think it would be for all Venomous Snakes, including Indigenous Species.
If you factor in all this, you can see how they would Kill our Hobby without even touching our Snakes. Only by requiring us to have something that most of us can’t afford, they could Kill Venomous Keeping.
This is just my $0.02.
Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally
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RE: I Normally Leave This Alone "BUT"
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by toddg on August 22, 2006
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Look, it doesn’t cost anything to jump off a cliff! However, if you wish to do it safely, you may want to invest a few grand into a parachute! If you ride a motorcycle, it’s not a bad idea to purchase a helmet. If you choose to participate in competitive sports, an athletic supporter will greatly enhance your ability to have children later in life. Conversely, if you choose to keep potentially life-threatening exotic animals, then it would behoove you to take every safety precaution possible and in the case of venomous snakes, that means keeping your own antivenin among other things.
Now for the sake of argument, let’s say that hospitals ARE required to keep antivenin for whichever venomous species you choose to keep. What happens if they don’t? You get bit, by your Russell’s viper; you go to your local E.R. and… “We’re sorry Mr. So-and-so, but we’re out of that particular antivenin”… “Yeah, I know we’re supposed to stock it but”… “We don’t get much call for that particular antivenin and”… “Hospital budgets being what they are”… we ran out.” “Sorry.”
The point I’m trying to make is; would you rather depend on someone else doing what they’re supposed to be doing or, would you rather just take every safety precaution possible yourself?
The other point I’m trying to make is; if you can’t afford to do your favorite hobby as safely as possible, then perhaps it’s time to find a different favorite hobby.
There’s always cliff jumping!
toddg
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RE: I Normally Leave This Alone "BUT"
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by thenovice on August 22, 2006
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stop complaining about how much antivenom costs and just don't get bit, then everyone is happy
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RE: I Normally Leave This Alone "BUT"
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by Mustangrde1 on August 22, 2006
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Interesting Topic… One I normally steer clear of as it’s more opinionative...
First point is Not even the availability of AV for native American venomous reptiles but the simple fact most DR do not know how to properly administer it nor do they know the proper dosage… I can think of one prime example where a gentleman was bitten in Florida by a Pygmy rattler and they gave him 4 full courses of AV … I believe his hospital bill was $32,000.00… There was no call for that much AV to have been used. Yes I was present so I can speak to that they went strictly going by the poison control guidelines…
Next issue is again going to be Hospital related… The price for Cro-fab wholesale is 585.00 and a 1900.00 for a 2 vial pack. The hospitals are marking it up through the roof as with almost everything… For god sake I went in for a throat that was closing from strep throat… They gave me a Tylenol and a 4 ounce cup of Gatorade to swallow it with… said see your DR in the morning, and the 2300.000 bill was filed in the round folder
Also last I checked Miami Dade is the only AV bank in this country! So by reasoning no one outside say 400 miles of that location should have exotics by some peoples reasoning… “Well here comes the shock awe and fight” Guns kill, cars kill, dogs kill, horses kill etc… Anything is possibly going to injure, or kill you fact of life!!! Should a person have insurance YES can most afford it NO!
Should we look down on people who do not have AV and yet keep venomous reptiles NO...I for one will not look down on any keeper because they can not afford AV… I can sympathize with zoos or other institutes that share the AV with the keeper who is bitten that they may be out for awhile….
But you know what If the Zoos and other institutes would stop placing themselves so dam high and mighty and make an offer to all keepers in the region to chip in for AV we would have AV Banks all over this country and this subject would be moot then wouldn’t it!!! This hobby and industry needs to learn to stop bitching and fighting and thinking any member of it is better or above another and start pooling resources to help each other!
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RE: I Normally Leave This Alone "BUT"
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by NajaAnja on August 22, 2006
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I agree with Scott. My protocols are always up to par, all the necessary information is inside. NOW wether or not the attending ED Doc decides to read and abide by them would be another story. Most cases you could bring your own a/v in and they would not even consider giving it to you, to cover their own butts as well as the hospitals (no matter what notarized paperwork you already had in your protocol regarding such incident). The guys at Miame Dade are programmed in my cell phone as is Ray Hunter, Scott Bice, Eric Marquette and Joe Switalski. One way or another I'm going to get a/v if it is ever necessary. The shelf life factor really does not make it acessible to all with costs involved. IF there was another a/v bank available yes I would join and support it. IF someone wanted to try to start one closer to the central/southern states I would be more than happy to help out with that as well. My collection tends to vary greatly at any given moment. I dont always keep the same species. Financially speaking its just not something I can afford to buy considering costs and shelf life. Does this mean I shouldnt be keeping at all? Who has the right to say that? That would be like telling people they couldnt cliff dive, bungee jump, base jump, parachute or any other seemingly dangerous activity for that matter.
Just my humble opinion.......
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by Buzztail1 on August 22, 2006
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I knew this one was going to explode eventually.
Scott, your first point is exactly the reason to get your own protocols and to go meet your local ER Doctors ahead of time. Not so hard for me as my hospital is only 5 miles down the road but that will take some time and planning on the part of some others. I still think in the long run that it is very worthwhile. Much better to meet them now and can argue your case than when you are unconcious and can't.
As I said before, I can't really argue one way or another for the health care facilities in this country. People complain about how expensive it is. That may be true. But the fact that they exist at all is something everyone takes for granted. Wait until you visit a country where you can't buy Tylenol because they have never heard of it. Now that is an experience. I was always afraid that I was going to get bitten by something in one of those countries. Did you know that there is probably more Gaboon Viper antivenom in the US than in the entire range where they actually exist? How about the fact that someone bitten by a wild Gaboon Viper in its natural range probably couldn't even tell you where the hospital is?
Al or Matt can more accurately discuss the availability of AV banks. I know they were personally involved in trying to start one up in the Northeast. Yep, just about anything can kill you. That is a fact of life. You get to choose what guns to keep in your house, what car to get, whether or not to get on that horse, whether or not to get a Yorkie or a Pit Bull and whether or not to keep venomous snakes. Does not keeping venomous snakes guarantee that you won't die from a venomous snake bite? No. But it sure lessens the possibility!
You will never find anywhere that I have said that I look down on any herper who doesn't keep antivenom! Not once! I did and do say that they SHOULD keep it. Not that they must. There are people whom I greatly respect that I think are not nearly as careful as I feel is necessary. I am just happy that when the time comes, I am responsible for MY hospital bills and not someone else's.
As for sympathizing with zoos, I have spoken to keepers and curators about why they don't keep various species that people are interested in. The fact that zoos have very small budgets and can't afford to keep many species simply because they cannot afford the antivenom is something that they don't widely publish. If they can't afford it for themselves, why in the world would they offer to buy it for someone else?
I didn't see a whole lot of people jumping on the bandwagon when Al and Matt were trying to start up the Northeastern US AV bank. To complain that we don't have one seems a little like closing the barn door after the cows went missing. As usual, it comes down to this:
No-one has to leave the comfort of their favorite chair to complain online about the unfairness of life. But when the opportunity comes to participate and change things, all of a sudden they are too busy.
This hobby may very well go away. But I don't believe it will be because of the "high and mighty" zoos. They are struggling to maintain their collections too. And it is the same people causing them trouble that cause us trouble. The irresponsible keepers (I DO NOT mean those that don't keep antivenom) who take unneccesary chances amd get bitten for no good reason other than carelessness.
I KNOW that I have never said or considered that I am better than anyone else in this hobby. I do KNOW that I am a lot more careful than a lot of people that I have met. I almost never discuss number of bites unless specifically asked. Let's just say that I intend for my number of bites to never get any higher than it already is. That should be everyone's goal. If they strived hard enough towards that goal, all this talk of antivenom would be moot.
Karl
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